Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Varqm 25 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Varqm 32 minutes ago.
Ripper Notes: Status of Ripper Notes? - by C. F. Leon 1 hour and 5 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by harry 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Batman 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (18 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (15 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Eddowes' gut cut - (5 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - (5 posts)
General Discussion: The Weapon - (3 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #251  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:33 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I identify two problems here - to begin with, we know that in some cases (like the 1873 case, where the frst parts had been dumped hours only after death, the Jackson case and the Pinchin Street case), the killer did not hang on to the torsos for more tha the fewest of days. There is every reason to surmise that this was the general rule, although some torsos (like the Whitehall torso) were not found until late.
Following on, if the killer took out all of Kellys parts to use as spare material, then why did he leave the organs with the body?
They may have just utilized what they wanted from a body. So in some cases they didn't want the torso but other parts. Head. Arms. Legs. Dump the torso. These would have been planned. Sex organs can be confiscated from any unfortunate unplanned.

Ed Gein did weird stuff similar, so I don't think its an unprecedented idea. Also Frankenstein is somewhat connected with the parts discovery in the 'Shelly' home.

I came up with this hypothesis last year or the year before on here and haven't seen or read it anywhere else. It is complex because it means the whitechapel murders of JtR are but a subset of much a bigger picture.

Another thing to remember is that throughout ancient history the Thames has had its fair share of torsos which continues right up until this day. Not all the torso murders may have been done by the same person.

However if JtR research hasn't made much progress, a better look at the evidence around the torso murders, may.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 03-21-2017, 02:21 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,668
Default

Batman: They may have just utilized what they wanted from a body. So in some cases they didn't want the torso but other parts. Head. Arms. Legs. Dump the torso. These would have been planned. Sex organs can be confiscated from any unfortunate unplanned.

Ed Gein did weird stuff similar, so I don't think its an unprecedented idea. Also Frankenstein is somewhat connected with the parts discovery in the 'Shelly' home.

I can see the logic, but it just does not work all that well for me. I find the extensive cutting on Mary Kelly, with a lot of time spent to achieve it, a lot of wasted time in the perspective. If he needed a heart (and we seem never to be able to agree that the heart was taken out here...), then why not hit her over the head, open the thorax, grab it and be gone?

For what reason did he spend lots and lots of time and effort on Kelly, if it was all about procuring a heart and nothing else...?

Much as it is an intriguing thought, I donīt think it fits the facts. Have alook at the 1873 torso victim - she had her face and scalp cut away in the shape of a ghastly mask. Why? So he could take another face/scalp from another victim and replace it? And why did he saw off the thighs at the hips and the arms at the shoulders, while he disarticulated the rest of the joints? What was that about? How does that fit?


I came up with this hypothesis last year or the year before on here and haven't seen or read it anywhere else. It is complex because it means the whitechapel murders of JtR are but a subset of much a bigger picture.

Another thing to remember is that throughout ancient history the Thames has had its fair share of torsos which continues right up until this day. Not all the torso murders may have been done by the same person.

However if JtR research hasn't made much progress, a better look at the evidence around the torso murders, may.

Absolutely. It is the best way forward, the way I look upon it.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:12 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,511
Default

I think the point of the hypothesis is that he is maintaining a corpse by replacing parts as they become more necrotic. That sexual organs are obtained by slash and grab as per the JtR murders for replacement and the other body parts chosen with calculation.

The question you are asking is why the overkill? Why not just take the parts. Well it seems to me that he seems to be just taking parts up until the mutilation of Eddowes face and then Kelly's entire being. So I just see it as an escalation in his hatred of the women he was harvesting from.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:18 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
I think the point of the hypothesis is that he is maintaining a corpse by replacing parts as they become more necrotic. That sexual organs are obtained by slash and grab as per the JtR murders for replacement and the other body parts chosen with calculation.

The question you are asking is why the overkill? Why not just take the parts. Well it seems to me that he seems to be just taking parts up until the mutilation of Eddowes face and then Kelly's entire being. So I just see it as an escalation in his hatred of the women he was harvesting from.
Okay. But why not just hack Kelly into little pieces? Why take out the organs and neatly place them around her in the bed, using some of them for a makeshift pillow? That does not seem like hatred to me.
The same goes for the part of colon he took out of Eddowes.
And if he needed one new kidney, then surely he needed two? They would have decomposed simultaneously.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 03-21-2017, 04:58 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Harry D: But according to you he was arrogant enough to tough it out on the streets. Why the need for a bolthole in the first place?

Because that was how he started out, when feeling less convinced that he could never get caught, perhaps. That may have played an initial role.
There is also another matter, that I cannot go into in detail. But basically, what he did would sometimes need tools that he could not take into the street, and some of the work he did was taken to a level of precision that he could not reach in a dark street.
The dark streets, though, were good enough for other elements on his agenda.
This is all presuming that I am correct when it comes to his object of inspiration, of course.


Can you name one serial killer who dismembered one series of victims in private whilst mutilating others on the street, in a matter of weeks?

I can name a number of killers who did things no other killer has done, Harry. We do not need another eyeball killer to prove that Charles albright existed, do we?

And yet he deliberately left the torsos to be found, not the heads.

And not the legs of the Pinchins Street torso. And not the upper thorax of the Rainham torso.
Parts were lost. Much of the torso parts were thrown into the water. The same may have happened to the heads. At any rate, he left other indicators and clues to the identities.

I don't know where the Torso did his killing but his dump sites stretched across London, whereas the Ripper never ventured outside the comfort of Whitechapel or its outskirts despite other corners of London crawling with prostitutes. Why was the Pinchin Torso the only Torso victim that overlapped with the Ripper's territory?

So I am correct, then - you do not know where the Torso man killed. The fact that he dumped body parts all over town was something the Ripper could not copy unless he threw the corpses of his victims over his shoulder and walked away with them, Harry. So you have no point.

Not in the case of Kelly, the only victim killed on similar grounds to the Torso series and he made a right meal of it.

She had her kidneys extracted from the front, just like Eddowes. And it was called skill in that case, so why not here? He also scored her face to mince-meat without damaging the eyes, so this was a man who could be very careful with the knife. And still, he cut off the eyelids, if memory serves me. Donīt underestimate him, Harry.

And you have no idea that the Torso murders spanned that long, either.

Yes, I do have such an idea, and I have the forensic evidence to go with it.

For argument's sake, if the murders did span that long, and given the cooling off periods between each murder, that would suggest an organized killer with a degree of self-control, in contrast to the Ripper who struck with alarming regularity over a short period of time in high-risk locations.

We donīt know when and how the Ripper struck. We speculate that he did so between August and November, but he may have killed other victims too, like MacKenzie. Both men peak around late 1888-1889, seemingly, something that should not be overlooked.
Hi Fish
exactly-and I think its a point that does get overlooked. Both series ended around the same time late summer early fall 89. Great point.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:01 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Of the four '87-'89 torso cases, three had the abdomen opened up from ribs to crotch. However, as far as I'm aware only Liz Jackson definitely had any internal organs removed. The other three torsos did not have any organs missing from the parts recovered.

The only body parts missing in all the torso cases were the heads.
Hi Rogan
I think you may be mistaken. All of them had internal body parts missing.

and why open up the bodies from rib to crotch?? It certainly cant help in dismemberment and or getting rid of the bodies.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:04 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,493
Default

Quote:
There is also another matter, that I cannot go into in detail. But basically, what he did would sometimes need tools that he could not take into the street, and some of the work he did was taken to a level of precision that he could not reach in a dark street.
The dark streets, though, were good enough for other elements on his agenda.
This is all presuming that I am correct when it comes to his object of inspiration, of course.
cmon Fish-dish. I want all the details, including the object of his inspiration!!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:50 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Rogan
I think you may be mistaken. All of them had internal body parts missing.

and why open up the bodies from rib to crotch?? It certainly cant help in dismemberment and or getting rid of the bodies.
That too is an excellent point, Abby. It reeks of evisceration all day long.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:56 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
cmon Fish-dish. I want all the details, including the object of his inspiration!!
I havenīt got all the details - but I am on the prowl. Some of them I do have, and they are enough for me to feel convinced I am on the right track. But since people out here are very particulate, I am keeping it to myself for now.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:58 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I havenīt got all the details - but I am on the prowl. Some of them I do have, and they are enough for me to feel convinced I am on the right track. But since people out here are very particulate, I am keeping it to myself for now.
bummer : (
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.