Private sale

[Jenni Shelden]

Sorry Edward,
you cannot say by the reaction of people on the thread something is clearly true when you havent said what you are implying. It is not fair on the people Ally, Jonathan, whoever else it was, to imply they are party to something and not say what it is you mean.

As the for the marginalia, its the family's property and its up to them what they do with it. I would like them to just give it to me for free, but if they want to flush it down the toliet, equally it s up to them

best wishes
Jenni

[Jenni Shelden]

Do you mean the buyer's premium?
The advantage of a prestigious auction is that it attracts attention and publicity - which attracts more buyers who bid competitively and so raise the price.
If I was handling it (cough) I'd get the interest of a TV company to do a background special following through to the sale - I'm sure there would be interest in this and it would probably quadruple the price compared to quiet behind the scenes approaches to perceived potential buyers.

So you'd rather some collector bought it rather than a Ripperologist?

[Ally]

I'm sure there would be interest in this and it would probably quadruple the price compared to quiet behind the scenes approaches to perceived potential buyers.

Behind the scenes?? Yes, because publicizing it for sale in public forums, magazines and conferences is "behind the scenes". That is the most ridiculously moronic argument on the face of the planet. And sorry but no. This is not something of any great value to anyone other than a very small group of enthusiasts and police historians, none of whom are going to want to pony up the money that's involved in a Sotheby auction and pay a commission on top of the purchase price.

Even if it is the genuine, one of a kind marginalia of Swanson, realistically speaking, who really gives a flying frak? It's one man's opinion and notes. It's not art. It has no broad reaching value. In short, it really isn't that important. (Sorry to the Swansons, luv ya lots, but let's be real here).

They have the best hope of maximizing their profit from it doing exactly what they are doing, approaching the small select group of people who might have an interest in it, based on their narrow and specialized field.

[Rob Clack]

Could try 'Four Rooms.'

Rob

[Robert]

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/four-rooms

Blimey, a weapon of mass destruction. Dentistry has come a long way since those days.

[Lechmere]

Ally
Yes behind the scenes.
It’s not an ‘argument’ it’s a statement of fact.
Besides those intimate with the family did anyone know it was currently being punted about?
Of course it is the family’s private property to do with as they will.

However this coyness and irritation at me for starting this thread reminds me of a celebrity who makes their name appearing in the papers and courting publicity – a website devoted to their promotion, articles about them in magazines and so on - then complaining when a unlicensed journalist prints a story of them going into a nightclub.

Anyway I thought a figure of £10,000 was mooted at one time. Crime related memorabilia has a reasonable market – particularly if related to the Jack the Ripper case even in these days of austerity.

Jenni
I am not going to break a confidence by saying how I know.
Anyone willing to buy it would be logically someone who valued it – ‘Ripperologist’ or not.

If it is sold, as it is potentially an important document, I would rather it was sold through a reputable auction house with a resident team of experts to give it their stamp of approval.
Wherever it is sold to and by whatever method, once it is sold it is very possible that no one will ever see it again, or put it under scrutiny.
Before it is sold, given that the family have the express intention and interest in selling it, there is the possibility of it being seen and scrutinised.
I am certain that an auction through a reputable house would get the best price despite commission and would give this field of study publicity and a degree of legitimacy in the wider historical research community for adopting a scrupulous approach to documents and their conveyance.

Rob
Not ‘Four Rooms’ but you are thinking along the right lines – part Lovejoy, part Cash-In the Attic, part Meet the Ancestors – it would be TV gold.
Think of the cast.

[John Bennett]

Besides those intimate with the family did anyone know it was currently being punted about?

It was announced ages ago. Loads of people knew about it - it was on the forums, mentioned at the York conference and the website has been live for goodness knows how long (thus putting it in the public eye and not just for Ripperology).

Surely Ally made that clear?

[Rob Clack]

If it is sold, as it is potentially an important document, I would rather it was sold through a reputable auction house with a resident team of experts to give it their stamp of approval.

Ah, your motive is clear now.

Rob
Not ‘Four Rooms’ but you are thinking along the right lines – part Lovejoy, part Cash-In the Attic, part Meet the Ancestors – it would be TV gold.
Think of the cast.

Four Rooms would be a good sounding board to potential offers and also the collection reaching a wider audience.

Rob

[Lechmere]

Rob
If it didn't interest any of the people in Four Rooms and fail to be sold that would reduce it's value!

John
As I understand it, it was announced that they were intending to find a buyer and sell it.
Now a purchaser is actively being sought out with it being offered for sale to potential buyers who did not approach them in the first instance.
If one accepts it will obviously be sold soon.
After months of apparent inactivity that is a change of circumstance in my opinion.

[AdamNeilWood]

What makes you think there have been months of inactivity?

For the record, an auction house which specialises in historical documents has inspected the collection and valued it at double what you mention. They also quote a commission rate of more than 20%.

The Swanson family are approaching various parties to gauge possible interest before deciding what course of action to take - they are in no rush to sell.

[Ally]

Ally
Yes behind the scenes.
It’s not an ‘argument’ it’s a statement of fact.
Besides those intimate with the family did anyone know it was currently being punted about?

You mean besides everyone who reads message boards, magazines, the internet and attends conferences? Yes people knew it was being "punted about". As has already been pointed out about 5 times, EVERYONE knew, except apparently you and you seem to have your knickers in a twist based solely on your own ignorance.

Of course it is the family’s private property to do with as they will.

Gracious that you grant them that privilege.

However this coyness and irritation at me for starting this thread reminds me of a celebrity who makes their name appearing in the papers and courting publicity – a website devoted to their promotion, articles about them in magazines and so on - then complaining when a unlicensed journalist prints a story of them going into a nightclub.

Coyness? Who is being coy? I think most are fairly blunt. As for irritation, that's what happens when you start an thread that has no real purpose except to create some sort of imaginary scandal where none actually exists and attempt to imply there's something nefarious going on ... and again, based solely on the fact that you are ignorant to the fact of what is and has been common knowledge for over a year.

Anyway I thought a figure of £10,000 was mooted at one time. Crime related memorabilia has a reasonable market – particularly if related to the Jack the Ripper case even in these days of austerity.

That may well be true, I have no idea of its value, but what someone says something is worth and finding someone willing to pay that amount may be two very different things. I am not a collector though and frankly, find the "collector mentality" baffling. If something has no use, it's basically a waste of money as far as I am concerned.

Wherever it is sold to and by whatever method, once it is sold it is very possible that no one will ever see it again, or put it under scrutiny.

Then buy it yourself or quitchyer bitchin. Everyone has an opportunity to purchase it. If you don't want to shell out the coin for it, you don't get a say in what happens to it.

[jmenges]

I could be wrong but I think Lechmere is saying he has some double-secret private information from a source he will not reveal, information all of us peons are not privy to, who tells him that very recently the thrust of this sale has changed towards the sellers actively soliciting specific buyers. If I'm right and that's the gist of what Lechmere is saying then not only is this not a shocking surprise to anyone, but indicates that the purpose of this thread is for him to stroke his own ego (secret source? I'm so jealous!) while attempting to ruffle some cabal feathers at the same time.

yawn.

JM

[Ally]

HOLD THE PHONE! Are you telling me that someone who put up an item up for sale is now contacting specific possibly interested parties to discuss a possible transaction. Get out of town!

That's just crazy talk.

Want to lay odds that if Cornwell buys it, she'll burn it?

[Lechmere]

Adam
I said months of apparent inactivity.
Now we learn that the documents have been quoted at £20,000 – a tidy sum indeed and one that would make an auction worthwhile.
But thank you for the further information.

Mr Menges
I didn’t say it was double secret, I said I don’t want to break a confidence about the source.
I think people interested in this field should be told what was going on – whether they are peons or peers – which is why I opened this thread.
And as a result we have had an update as to the current state of affairs.

Ally
I’m not getting my knickers in a twist and all irate because this subject had been raised.
I think you are though.
I repeat – it is common knowledge that the items were being put up for sale at some time – and that they were being prepared for sale.
It was not known that they were actively being offered for sale – that is a different thing.
This is a rather strange comment:
‘Everyone has an opportunity to purchase it. If you don't want to shell out the coin for it, you don't get a say in what happens to it.’
So by the same token if the last remaining copy of the Domesday Book were sold to a private collector I should not bitch about it as I should bid myself?
That is frankly a ludicrous argument.
We have a document which some regard as the most significant finds in the last thirty fears in this field, that is being disposed of, possibly to hands where it will never be accessed again an your only comment is that I should buy it myself.

[Robert]

Lechmere, as far as I am aware the manuscript of the Domesday Book is in the National Archives and is presumably publicly owned, so yes, if the Government wanted to sell it then you as a part-owner might feel aggrieved. But this Swanson stuff belongs to the Swanson family. It's private property.