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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #51  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:41 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I'm certainly being sold on Pinchin and Jackson right now.... The fact that both sets of victims displayed abdominal mutilation and missing parts can't just be coincidence.
The abdominal mutilation in the Pinchin Street case was rather superficial, in that the abdominal wall had not been cut through. Also, the missing parts were the head and legs, as opposed to internal organs; the sort of parts that tend to be missing in dismemberment cases, in fact, not evisceration murders. Personally, I doubt that this was the work of "the" Torso killer, let alone Jack the Ripper.

Elizabeth Jackson had been cut into several pieces which were found all over the place. Most of the body parts, including her missing internal organs, were recovered, apart from her head, the contents of her chest and intestines. Her uterus had been removed, but this was found dumped with a portion of her torso. This has all the hallmarks of someone scattering evidence to the four winds, not an evisceration murderer per se.
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  #52  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:52 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
One out of three, John.

You'll get there.
No three out of three Christer.
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  #53  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:40 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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No three out of three Christer.
Ah - you changed your mind; good!
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  #54  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:50 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: The abdominal mutilation in the Pinchin Street case was rather superficial, in that the abdominal wall had not been cut through. Also, the missing parts were the head and legs, as opposed to internal organs; the sort of parts that tend to be missing in dismemberment cases, in fact, not evisceration murders. Personally, I doubt that this was the work of "the" Torso killer, let alone Jack the Ripper.

So there COULD probably have been eviscerations, but there were not. What can we conclude from that, Gareth?

That it was not Jack the Ripper, who simply MUST have been about eviscerations only?

Or that the murders were not necessarily about eviscerations at all?

Look at Kelly! Was her thigh eviscerated? Her breasts? Her face? Isn't it true that it is evident that not only eviscerations were on the killers agenda but instead mutilations as such seems to have played a vital role?
And if it did then why would we assume that this killer absolutely must eviscerate, given the chance?
The Torso killer didn´t. He eviscerated at times, while abstaining from it at other tines, as demonstrated by the Pinchin Street torso.
Why must the Ripper be different? So that we can tell them apart?

Elizabeth Jackson had been cut into several pieces which were found all over the place. Most of the body parts, including her missing internal organs, were recovered, apart from her head, the contents of her chest and intestines. Her uterus had been removed, but this was found dumped with a portion of her torso. This has all the hallmarks of someone scattering evidence to the four winds, not an evisceration murderer per se.

Kellys uterus had been removed and discarded too, EXACTLY like Jacksons was. And you forget that Jacksons heart and lungs were also removed, as per Hebbert. Why did this killer do that? Because she was pregnant? To facilitate dismemberment?
The torso killer was an aggressive mutilator and eviscerator. That is what the facts and evidence tell us. It puts him on par with that other serial killer who roamed the same city at the same time, by the way - what's his name again...?
Your take on things leaks worse than the Titanic, I'm afraid.
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  #55  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:13 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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To my mind the problem with "Jack' being the torso killer doesn't lay in the style or extent of the mutilations but in the locations. If both sets of murders were by the same hand why then did 'Jack' risk open assaults on the street when he had an (obviously) secure place to practice his 'trade'? And if he was cunning enough to lure women to his 'chop-shop' (to steal a phrase) why not apply that skill and avoid all high risk kills?

IMO I can put the torso killer in Mary Kelly's room quicker than I can the killer of Martha, Polly, Anne, and Kate. These attacks show no cunning or planning, only the behavior of a high risk marauder.

Also there is the absence of personality in the Whitechapel fiend; the torso killer had a very dark sense of humor (the Whitehall and Pinchin Street dumps speak to that) while 'Jack' seems to have no personality he wished to share with the public.

Which obviously takes me to the opinion that none of the 'Ripper letters' came from the Whitchapel fiend.

I would though consider that the 'From Hell' letter, kidney and all, may have come from same guy (the torso killer) who dumped a body in the New Scotland Yard building; the two behaviors complement each other.

The torso killer seems to have a problem with authority; the Whitechapel fellow only seems to seek anonymity.
I don't know AP
either one of dear boss or from hell letters could be authentic-and I definitely see dark humor in both. the gsg is almost certainly from the killer so theres that too.

ive always maintained that the ripper murders could be when his chop shop was not available and had to kill on the streets. then theres the thrill factor too.

Quote:
I would though consider that the 'From Hell' letter, kidney and all, may have come from same guy (the torso killer) who dumped a body in the New Scotland Yard building; the two behaviors complement each other.

interesting. which torso victim do you think its from?
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  #56  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:19 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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As you said, perhaps some persons - plural and maybe not connected. Since we don’t know how the women died, it’s an assumption that they were all murdered, and yet another assumption that they were all murdered by the same man.

E.g. Elizabeth Jackson, Debra Arif has posted sources showing EJ talked about getting rid of her foetus. So perhaps her death was an abortion gone wrong and her dismemberment an attempt to hide that crime. Meaning she was not killed by a “torso killer”.
Similarly for the other women, we don’t know how they died so it’s possible their deaths are not related.

In fairness Hebbert, who examined all of them, and the police believed they were murdered by the same man.
even if thats true about EJ, it dosnt mean the dr couldnt be the torso killer. of course he could. maybe that was part of his MO. unfortunates coming to him for help and bam.
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  #57  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:24 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Fish, you misunderstand me. Probably my wording is wrong. I mention the Pinchin and Whitehall cases (I actually had a brain freeze and forgot Jackson ) because they were more likely being within the same time frame as Jack, who I have always believed began his 'murderous glut' around the beginning of 1888 (maybe not now, hmmm) I'm starting to agree with you, having read your arguments within this very post. I've always been of the opinion that Jack and Torso were two different murderers, with the exception of Pinchin, which was in Whitechapel, therefore giving a direct link to the WM. But lately I've been reconsidering the torso victims and your argument for this is strengthening my reconsideration I'm certainly being sold on Pinchin and Jackson right now.... The fact that both sets of victims displayed abdominal mutilation and missing parts can't just be coincidence.
exactly uncle
post mortem serial killers are very rare to begin with and all the torso victims had mutilations above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment. all had there abdomen targeted and some had internal organs taken out.
both series probably ended the same time with pinchim and McKenzie. another coincidence?

too many coincidences for me and I just dont see two of these creatures lurking about the time and place targeting the same type of victim.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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Last edited by Abby Normal : 01-08-2019 at 06:30 AM.
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  #58  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:34 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Ah - you changed your mind; good!
No need as I am right.
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  #59  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:40 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Originally Posted by APerno View Post
I would though consider that the 'From Hell' letter, kidney and all, may have come from same guy (the torso killer) who dumped a body in the New Scotland Yard building; the two behaviors complement each other.
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
interesting. which torso victim do you think its from?
Not the Whitehall torso, as the kidneys were still in situ.

In fact, I believe the kidneys of all the 87-89 torso victims were recovered, so there would need to be another unknown victim for this to be the case.
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  #60  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:11 PM
APerno APerno is offline
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I don't know AP

Call me Anthony

either one of dear boss or from hell letters could be authentic-and I definitely see dark humor in both. the gsg is almost certainly from the killer so theres that too.

I am a Harry Dam advocate when it comes to the Dear Boss letter and Saucy Jacky postcard. When you look at Dam's history (both back in the States and when with The Star) he is such an obvious candidate I find it difficult to understand why CID didn't move against him. They so recognized the Americanisms in the phrasing of both correspondences that they started interviewing cowboys and Indians (literally) but still (best as we know) they never bothered Dam about it. (And everyone knew he had caused the "leather apron" mess.)

I stated earlier that I believe PC Long made-up the importance of the GSG to distract from the fact that he didn't make his 2:20 round. By claiming that both the apron and graffito were not there at 2:20 makes him sound less incompetent, i.e. makes it sound like he had done a complete investigation at 2:20. The ruse worked, the City Police became obsessed with the writing and no one seems, at the time, to question why the murderer would have hung around the crime scene for (a minimum of) 35 minutes after Kate was found.

This of course does not mean Jack couldn't have written the message (sometime before 2:20), but we can't depend on PC Long for a time frame regarding either the apron or the griffito and actually it's only PC Long's 'time-frame claim' that makes the writing a possible clue anyway.

I believe people, then and now, want this base, brutish man, the Whitechapel killer to have an infamous personality that the media can embrace, and thus quickly accept the various writings as his. It adds color to what is very likely a boring, debased, smelly man. In the same vein that makes people want Jack be a toffer, with cape and conspiracy, the letters make him a more interesting villain.

ive always maintained that the ripper murders could be when his chop shop was not available and had to kill on the streets. then theres the thrill factor too.

Not unreasonable logic. A question for the profilers: is it more common for there to be multiple serial killers operating at the same time, or is it more common for a serial killer to use multiple MOs? I wonder which way the numbers fall?

interesting. which torso victim do you think its from?

Someone addressed that below. I was unaware that we knew the torso victims were intact (at least in regards to the kidneys), the poster says they were. I can't speak to his statement now, I need to read more.
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