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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #1  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:02 AM
Uncle Jack Uncle Jack is offline
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Default Could Jack have killed some of the torso victims?

Does anyone think it possible that any of the victims (not all) could have been killed by Jack the Ripper? I'm talking the more likely ones such as Pinchin Street / Whitehall? I would have dismissed them a few years back but now my mind is changing and thinking it is a possibility, especially with Pinchin Street.
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  #2  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:10 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jack View Post
Does anyone think it possible that any of the victims (not all) could have been killed by Jack the Ripper? I'm talking the more likely ones such as Pinchin Street / Whitehall? I would have dismissed them a few years back but now my mind is changing and thinking it is a possibility, especially with Pinchin Street.
Why don´t you ascribe all the torso cases to the same man? Charles Hebbert said that the Rainham case, The Whitehall case, Liz Jackson and the Pinchin Street case were in all probability the work of the same man. He based it on the similarities of the cutting done to the bodies: "In almost every respect they (the two latter murders, Jackson/Pinchin Street, my remark) are similar to the first two cases (Rainham/Whitehall, my remark), and appear to belong to a series of murders and dismemberment by the same hand."
Further to that: "The mode of dismemberment and mutilation was in all similar, and showed very considerable skill in execution, and it is a fair presumption from the facts, that the same man committed all four murders."

I include the 1873 torso too, and probably the 1874 ditto, although there is very scarce evidence relating to the latter case.

And yes, I think we have the same killer in all these cases AND the Ripper series.

Last edited by Fisherman : 01-07-2019 at 03:25 AM.
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  #3  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:31 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Why don´t you ascribe all the torso cases to the same man? Charles Hebbert said that the Rainham case, The Whitehall case, Liz Jackson and the Pinchin Street case were in all probability the work of the same man. He based it on the similarities of the cutting done to the bodies.

I include the 1873 torso too, and probably the 1874 ditto, although there is very scarce evidence relating to the latter case.

And yes, I think we have the same killer in all these cases AND the Ripper series.
I notice that you failed to respond to questions I put to you before xmas on your belief that the torsos and the WM were the work of the the same person. Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer now?

Perhaps you would care to share with us any evidence which shows the police in 1888 suspected that firstly, all the torsos you refer to were the subject of homicides.

Secondly that the police believed they were all the work of one solo killer?

And thirdly that they suspected that JTR was responsible for murdering the women whose torsos were found in the thames.

If you cannot answer those questions definitively then what you are postulating becomes nothing more than your own wild speculative theory, partly based on your own personal interpretation of the inquest testimonies give by the Victorian doctors, which as you have been told is nothing more than uncorroborated opinions especially with regards to the torsos where they suggested blows on the head had been the cause of death. That is really good especially as no skulls were found in most cases.

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Old 01-07-2019, 04:00 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Trevor Marriott: I notice that you failed to respond to questions I put to you before xmas on your belief that the torsos and the WM were the work of the the same person. Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer now?

Oh dear! Trevor has me up against the wall!! Now he will reveal my misconceptions for all to see - help!

Perhaps you would care to share with us any evidence which shows the police in 1888 suspected that firstly, all the torsos you refer to were the subject of homicides.

They speak of the cases as murders, as we have done since. Hebbert, the top authority on these cases, said that they were murder cases - by a single perpetrator.

Secondly that the police believed they were all the work of one solo killer?

They would have listened to Hebbert, and there is a reason that this is the normal take on things. Since 1889, these cases have been referred to as the Tames Torso murders, Trevor. Since 1889, it has been well known that the missing heads made it hard to identify the cause of death, but the cases are NEVERTHELESS referred to was murder cases. And wisely so - it is by far the best guess we can make, and there can be little doubt that it is the correct verdict. Some of the cases were actually ruled murders at the inquests, for these very reasons.

And thirdly that they suspected that JTR was responsible for murdering the women whose torsos were found in the thames.

The idea was launched and considered, but rejected on grounds involving an idea that dismemberment murders were always about practical matters like transport or disenabling identification.
I actually know a poster out here who is eager to claim that the medicos knew next to nothing and had to guess. Maybe that does not apply here, though? What do you say? Do you want it the other way around now?

If you cannot answer those questions definitively then what you are postulating becomes nothing more than your own wild speculative theory, partly based on your own personal interpretation of the inquest testimonies give by the Victorian doctors, which as you have been told is nothing more than uncorroborated opinions especially with regards to the torsos where they suggested blows on the head had been the cause of death. That is really good especially as no skulls were found in most cases.

Trevor, people who claim that the Ripper victims had their innards stolen by enterprising mortuary attendants are not fit to suggest that other people entertain "wildly speculative ideas". As for the lost heads, you would perhaps know how that works better than most.
And that is all I have to say to you for now. You've had your answers, adieu.

Last edited by Fisherman : 01-07-2019 at 04:02 AM.
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  #5  
Old 01-07-2019, 06:07 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Trevor Marriott: I notice that you failed to respond to questions I put to you before xmas on your belief that the torsos and the WM were the work of the the same person. Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer now?

Oh dear! Trevor has me up against the wall!! Now he will reveal my misconceptions for all to see - help!

Perhaps you would care to share with us any evidence which shows the police in 1888 suspected that firstly, all the torsos you refer to were the subject of homicides.

They speak of the cases as murders, as we have done since. Hebbert, the top authority on these cases, said that they were murder cases - by a single perpetrator.

Secondly that the police believed they were all the work of one solo killer?

They would have listened to Hebbert, and there is a reason that this is the normal take on things. Since 1889, these cases have been referred to as the Tames Torso murders, Trevor. Since 1889, it has been well known that the missing heads made it hard to identify the cause of death, but the cases are NEVERTHELESS referred to was murder cases. And wisely so - it is by far the best guess we can make, and there can be little doubt that it is the correct verdict. Some of the cases were actually ruled murders at the inquests, for these very reasons.

And thirdly that they suspected that JTR was responsible for murdering the women whose torsos were found in the thames.

The idea was launched and considered, but rejected on grounds involving an idea that dismemberment murders were always about practical matters like transport or disenabling identification.
I actually know a poster out here who is eager to claim that the medicos knew next to nothing and had to guess. Maybe that does not apply here, though? What do you say? Do you want it the other way around now?

If you cannot answer those questions definitively then what you are postulating becomes nothing more than your own wild speculative theory, partly based on your own personal interpretation of the inquest testimonies give by the Victorian doctors, which as you have been told is nothing more than uncorroborated opinions especially with regards to the torsos where they suggested blows on the head had been the cause of death. That is really good especially as no skulls were found in most cases.

Trevor, people who claim that the Ripper victims had their innards stolen by enterprising mortuary attendants are not fit to suggest that other people entertain "wildly speculative ideas". As for the lost heads, you would perhaps know how that works better than most.
And that is all I have to say to you for now. You've had your answers, adieu.
What a load of waffle you duck and dive more times than an Olympic swimmer 🏊*♀️

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  #6  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:10 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Trevor Marriott: I notice that you failed to respond to questions I put to you before xmas on your belief that the torsos and the WM were the work of the the same person. Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer now?

Perhaps you would care to share with us any evidence which shows the police in 1888 suspected that firstly, all the torsos you refer to were the subject of homicides.

They speak of the cases as murders, as we have done since. Hebbert, the top authority on these cases, said that they were murder cases - by a single perpetrator.

Hebbert simply gave an opinion which was not corroborated by any definitive evidence which pointed specifically to homicides.

They would have listened to Hebbert, and there is a reason that this is the normal take on things. Since 1889, these cases have been referred to as the Tames Torso murders, Trevor. Since 1889, it has been well known that the missing heads made it hard to identify the cause of death, but the cases are NEVERTHELESS referred to was murder cases. And wisely so - it is by far the best guess we can make, and there can be little doubt that it is the correct verdict. Some of the cases were actually ruled murders at the inquests, for these very reasons.

Perhaps you could supply the official police record, or any other official documentation from 1889 to show all these torsos were referred to under the heading of The Thames Torso Murders?

The murder verdicts you refer to were arrived at by the direction of the coroner simply on the opinion of the doctor without supporting medical evidence.

And thirdly that they suspected that JTR was responsible for murdering the women whose torsos were found in the thames.

[color="Red"]The idea was launched and considered, but rejected on grounds involving an idea that dismemberment murders were always about practical matters like transport or disenabling identification.[color="Red"]

Was the idea launched in 1888 if so please tell who launched it, and who rejected it?

I suspect it is a more recent suggestion


Trevor, people who claim that the Ripper victims had their innards stolen by enterprising mortuary attendants are not fit to suggest that other people entertain "wildly speculative ideas". As for the lost heads, you would perhaps know how that works better than most.
And that is all I have to say to you for now. You've had your answers, adieu.
I dont know any poster who claims that the organs were stolen by mortuary attendants

You really do need to read my book

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #7  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:54 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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These 2 actions...mutilation vs dismemberment, have as much to do with each other as eviscerating and poisoning do. Or stabbing a victim to death and decisively slicing the throats to kill them do.

This square peg in round holing that goes on here daily is just proof how ingrained the beliefs are. If one assumes its reasonable to assume no 2 people could do similar acts in the same place and near the same time, then its natural to try and put different crime signatures under one suspect, but its not reasonable to assume that to begin with.

The Torsos predated the Fall of Terror, and occurred after those few months. If anything people should be more eager to study the Torso murders over the alleged Ripper murders, because that killer...or those killers, operated over a substantially longer period. One assumed madman on a short lived spree pales in comparison.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:28 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jack View Post
Does anyone think it possible that any of the victims (not all) could have been killed by Jack the Ripper? I'm talking the more likely ones such as Pinchin Street / Whitehall? I would have dismissed them a few years back but now my mind is changing and thinking it is a possibility, especially with Pinchin Street.
Pinchin Street is the best bet, if at all. The other torso victims were dumped in West London, where they probably lived and died, if Elizabeth Jackson is anything to go by. All the torso victims, Pinchin included, were almost certainly killed and dismembered in private, with the killer(s) only venturing onto the streets to dispose of body parts.

This is very unlike what happened to all the canonical Ripper victims except Kelly, and even in her case the privacy only comprised a rented room with a thin wall and a broken window. There was no dismemberment either, a factor completely absent in the other canonical/non-canonical Ripper murders.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:48 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Pinchin Street is the best bet, if at all. The other torso victims were dumped in West London, where they probably lived and died, if Elizabeth Jackson is anything to go by. All the torso victims, Pinchin included, were almost certainly killed and dismembered in private, with the killer(s) only venturing onto the streets to dispose of body parts.

This is very unlike what happened to all the canonical Ripper victims except Kelly, and even in her case the privacy only comprised a rented room with a thin wall and a broken window. There was no dismemberment either, a factor completely absent in the other canonical/non-canonical Ripper murders.
The Ripper deeds were all much swifter deeds, and the killer would not have brought a saw along. That alone may explain the left out dismemberment. More how the head of he Pinchin Street victim was taken off with a knife, whereas the earlier torso victims were decapitated by saw, including Jackson in the summer of 89. Hebbert said that it marked a progression within the killer.
So if he did. ot decapitate by knife any sooner than in the summer of 1889, it seems totally logical that Kelly was not decapitated.

This discussion of course predisposes that the killer WOULD have decapitated the Ripper victims if he could. But WOULD he have done so? Not necessarily, no. And personally, I think he would NOT have done so, even if he could. I think he wanted the heads to remain on the bodies, and that this was important to what the killer did. I believe that the decapitations in the torso series were practical matters, and that the killer initially left the heads on the bodies. A pointer to this can be seen in the Pinchin Street case, where the legs had been taken away first while thee had had been left on the body - the surfaces of the taken of thighs left on the body were blacked and dry, but the neck was red and moist.
So the killer took the legs of long before the head; this he left on the body and he would have done so for a reason - it was included in what he used the body for. The legs were not, and so they were discarded immediately.

Similarly, I think that the Ripper victims´ heads were important to the killer, and that he would not want to take them off. They were part of his phantasy.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:19 AM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jack View Post
Does anyone think it possible that any of the victims (not all) could have been killed by Jack the Ripper? I'm talking the more likely ones such as Pinchin Street / Whitehall? I would have dismissed them a few years back but now my mind is changing and thinking it is a possibility, especially with Pinchin Street.
Some do think it not only possible, but likely. Personally I consider it possible, of course, but as there’s no real proof of a link, I do not at present accept it.

Most compelling reason in my opinion for considering a common origin is the overlap in time.

While Hebbert writes that he believed the four torso cases to be by the same hand, I don’t believe he ever compared them to JtR.
Monro did, saying he did not believe them to be connected, although he did ascribe the four torso cases to the same man.

Bagster-Phillips said he did not believe Pinchin St. and MJK to be similar enough to be by the same man.



Drew Gray is co-authoring a book apparently about the possibility of JTR and Torso Killer being the same, it comes out this spring, I believe. It will be interesting to read a reasonably argued case for this theory.

But so far most people are unconvinced, I believe.
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