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  #71  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:17 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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The important thing about the pitch and toss is this ....
It's not to suggest he saw her come and go that particular day whilst playing , it's that when you find a convenient , relatively safe location to play it , you probably stick with that location until the police cottoned on .So for the weeks leading up to this he would have been well used to seeing her wandering in and out of her room whilst playing .
The importance of this is that he would have known and easily recognised Kelly and known which room in the court was hers ..... also recognised Barnett for the same reasons if that had been their preferred location for a number of weeks or even months
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  #72  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
What other obvious options?
Rather hoping you could work that out for yourself when confronted with the evidence
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  #73  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:44 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Checking the accounts attributed to M. Lewis in the press, it seems we have differing statements.

This is the first from the Times, 10 Nov.:
"A tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about 8 o'clock yesterday morning and go back. Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public-house known as the Ringers at the corner of Dorset-street and Commercial-street, about 10 o'clock yesterday morning, and that she met there her lover, Barnet (sic) and had a glass of beer with him. "

No mention of her going for milk, and no mention of him playing pitch & toss.
So, we do not know if Lewis saw Kelly leave her room, because he does not say he was in the court playing pitch & toss when he saw her.

The Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov, wrote:
"Morris Lewis, a tailor, states he was playing pitch-and-toss in the court at nine o'clock yesterday morning, and an hour before that he saw the woman leave the house and return with some milk."

Which leaves us with the impression Lewis was in the court when he saw Kelly.

Now, a more complete version.
This one you have to read...
"Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, betwen ten and eleven, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after ten o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-cour, when he heard a lad call out "Copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset- street, known as Ringer's. He was positive than on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock."
Illustrated Police News, 17 Nov.

- No mention of milk.
- Lewis was not in the court when he saw Kelly.
- Lewis did not see Kelly leave or return.

I think, the journalist confused Maxwell's story with Lewis's - it was Maxwell who returned with milk.

"Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk,..."

It was Maxwell who bought milk, not Kelly.
I wonder how much credence we should give to a report describing someone as selling oranges in Billingsgate Market?

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-12-2018 at 03:47 PM.
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  #74  
Old 06-12-2018, 03:59 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
I wonder how much credence we should give to a report describing someone as selling oranges in Billingsgate Market?
Plenty i'd say .
He was out of work so he could have been doing anything to earn a few pennies at the time .
Does say Spitalfields market also and it's a rather irrelevant part of the report really
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  #75  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:29 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Plenty i'd say .
He was out of work so he could have been doing anything to earn a few pennies at the time .
Does say Spitalfields market also and it's a rather irrelevant part of the report really
If it's a choice between 'Danny' having sold oranges in Billingsgate (fish) Market and a journalistic error, I'd choose the latter.
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  #76  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:34 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
I wonder how much credence we should give to a report describing someone as selling oranges in Billingsgate Market?
The error might not be the name of the market. Dan may have worked at both markets Billingsgate & Spitalfields.
Dan Barnett was a Fish Porter by trade, but he might have sold oranges at the Spitalfields mkt.
Joe Barnett had lost his Porters license in July.
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  #77  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:27 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
The error might not be the name of the market. Dan may have worked at both markets Billingsgate & Spitalfields.
Dan Barnett was a Fish Porter by trade, but he might have sold oranges at the Spitalfields mkt.
Joe Barnett had lost his Porters license in July.
It's possible some witnesses just said he worked at the market, and reporters jumped to the conclusion it was the nearby Spitalfields market.
McCarthy is reported at one point as saying he was a coal-porter.
Barnett himself said in court "I am a labourer and have been a fish-porter".

An unnamed source said in the Daily News;
"Barnett is a very inoffensive man, and occasionally works as a porter at Billingsgate Market, filling up his time by hawking fruit."
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  #78  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:40 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Are there any reports other than the Illustrated Police News on 17th Nov that atrribute the sighting of Kelly in the pub on the morning of her death to Lewis? As far as I can work out (and as Wickerman posted earlier) there were several press reports saying he had seen her leave her house early, and return, one or two adding that she bought milk, eg;

Echo 9 Nov
"Morris Lewis, a tailor, states that he was playing "pitch and toes" in the court at nine o'clock this morning, and an hour before that he had seen the woman leave the house, and return with some milk. There is no evidence as to who was in the house with her."

These are usually accompanied by an unattributed story of the sighting in the pub, although one at least specifies that the source was a woman.

Echo 10 Nov
"Another statement was made last evening by a woman, who asserted that the deceased had been seen by her alive and well, and in company with a man, at the Ringers public-house, at the corner of Dorset-street, at half-past ten yesterday morning. It seems certain, however, that this statement was either due to a mistake, or was one of those mischievous inventions which add so immensely to the labours and worries of the police."

There is also this, also from the Echo;

Echo 10 Nov
"Many persons who have been interviewed, state that the unfortunate woman never left her house at Dorset-street after she had entered it on Thursday night, while, on the other hand, numerous persons, who declare that they were companions of the deceased and know her well, state that she came out of her house at eight o'clock on Friday morning for provisions, and furthermore, that they were drinking with her in the Britannia, a local tavern, at ten o'clock on the same morning as her mutilated body was found at eleven."

Was Lewis one of these 'companions'? Or could he simply have exaggerated his part by incorporating details that were circulating in the area and the press into his IPN interview published a week later?
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  #79  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:47 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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There is also an interview with an unnamed male friend of Mary Jane. It's not incompatible with being Maurice Lewis, but doesn't contain any of his sighting details. Does anyone know if this can be attributed to anyone specific?

Echo 9 Nov
"A FRIEND OF THE VICTIM'S - HIS STORY
A friend of the murdered woman's spoke as follows to our reporter: - "I have known the murdered woman for some considerable time. She was an unfortunate, and given to drink. Her age would be somewhere about 26, and she had led her present life for about seven years. I have known her frequent the common lodging-houses of the locality. I believe she has been in custody a good many times for drunkenness. I cannot say that she had been for any length of time with any one particular man, but I have heard that she lived with a man. She was always shabbily dressed, but against this she was clean in her personal habits. She was on fairly good terms with the other people in the Dorset-street, who Number, I should say, about fifty."
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  #80  
Old 06-23-2018, 04:16 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Are there any reports other than the Illustrated Police News on 17th Nov that atrribute the sighting of Kelly in the pub on the morning of her death to Lewis? As far as I can work out (and as Wickerman posted earlier) there were several press reports saying he had seen her leave her house early, and return, one or two adding that she bought milk, eg;

Echo 9 Nov
"Morris Lewis, a tailor, states that he was playing "pitch and toes" in the court at nine o'clock this morning, and an hour before that he had seen the woman leave the house, and return with some milk. There is no evidence as to who was in the house with her."

These are usually accompanied by an unattributed story of the sighting in the pub, although one at least specifies that the source was a woman.

Echo 10 Nov
"Another statement was made last evening by a woman, who asserted that the deceased had been seen by her alive and well, and in company with a man, at the Ringers public-house, at the corner of Dorset-street, at half-past ten yesterday morning. It seems certain, however, that this statement was either due to a mistake, or was one of those mischievous inventions which add so immensely to the labours and worries of the police."

There is also this, also from the Echo;

Echo 10 Nov
"Many persons who have been interviewed, state that the unfortunate woman never left her house at Dorset-street after she had entered it on Thursday night, while, on the other hand, numerous persons, who declare that they were companions of the deceased and know her well, state that she came out of her house at eight o'clock on Friday morning for provisions, and furthermore, that they were drinking with her in the Britannia, a local tavern, at ten o'clock on the same morning as her mutilated body was found at eleven."

Was Lewis one of these 'companions'? Or could he simply have exaggerated his part by incorporating details that were circulating in the area and the press into his IPN interview published a week later?
The one in the star of the 10th does mention Barnett also .... poss mix up for Dan
A tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about eight o'clock yesterday morning and go back. Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public-house known as the "Ringers," at the corner of Dorset-street and Commercial-street, about ten o'clock yesterday morning, and that she there met her lover Barnett, and had a glass of beer with him. This statement also is not substantiated.
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