Prater's stairs

[GUT]

Hi GUT.
I suspect the turn of the stairs was outside the back room, in this case we can see wainscoting just at the top of the stairs (bearing in mind this is 29 Hanbury St.), so the room on the other side of that wainscoting would be Kelly's room, if this were 26 Dorset St.

So I guess we differ on that point

G'day Jon

You may be right,

Just it would explain the bed position.

[Wickerman]

Richard.
Here is an offering that comes to mind, drawn to scale.
This is just the landing section of No.26, in plan view.
In this example the house is 15ft wide (taken from the press), the landing is 9ft deep (taken from the Kate Marshall case).

The arrow at top left is the stairs coming up to this first floor, from the ground floor. The stairs continue around the banister handrail and up to the second floor.
Stairs are typically 4ft wide (approx), so side by side would create a 9ft landing.
We are told there was a storage room on the landing (between rm 19 and rm 20).
I have arbitrarily allowed 5ft depth for this room, which leaves 3ft between the stairs and the storage room wall to allow 3ft for a door into each rm 19, and rm 20.
Drawn to scale this now might explain why the landing is also called a passage - it is very narrow.

[richardh]

Just saw your image above Jon, just as I'm posting this suggestion. I'll post it anyway to get some feedback.

Is this a possible layout?

[richardh]

Jon, where's Prater's 'passage' door in that sketch?

I will 3D that sketch to see what it looks like 'virtually'.

thanks

Richard.
Here is an offering that comes to mind, drawn to scale.
This is just the landing section of No.26, in plan view.
In this example the house is 15ft wide (taken from the press), the landing is 9ft deep (taken from the Kate Marshall case).

The arrow at top left is the stairs coming up to this first floor, from the ground floor. The stairs continue around the banister handrail and up to the second floor.
Stairs are typically 4ft wide (approx), so side by side would create a 9ft landing.
We are told there was a storage room on the landing (between rm 19 and rm 20).
I have arbitrarily allowed 5ft depth for this room, which leaves 3ft between the stairs and the storage room wall to allow 3ft for a door into each rm 19, and rm 20.
Drawn to scale this now might explain why the landing is also called a passage - it is very narrow.

[GUT]

The 9 foot landing lends me to think the stairs go up the partition all, turn at a landing then up again, otherwise why make the landing so wide?

[Wickerman]

Jon, where's Prater's 'passage' door in that sketch?

That was just the first floor landing Richard.
On the ground floor I envisage the stairs running up adjacent to the side wall of the house (the wall adjacent to Millers Court passage).
Just like we see in the Hanbury St. photo.
In this older sketch the door inside Millers Court passage is at the foot of the stairs - I only had room to draw the door jamb.



At the time of drawing this I didn't think to draw the stairs turning at the top.

[GUT]

Richard.
Here is an offering that comes to mind, drawn to scale.
This is just the landing section of No.26, in plan view.
In this example the house is 15ft wide (taken from the press), the landing is 9ft deep (taken from the Kate Marshall case).

The arrow at top left is the stairs coming up to this first floor, from the ground floor. The stairs continue around the banister handrail and up to the second floor.
Stairs are typically 4ft wide (approx), so side by side would create a 9ft landing.
We are told there was a storage room on the landing (between rm 19 and rm 20).
I have arbitrarily allowed 5ft depth for this room, which leaves 3ft between the stairs and the storage room wall to allow 3ft for a door into each rm 19, and rm 20.
Drawn to scale this now might explain why the landing is also called a passage - it is very narrow.

I think that's the closest.

[richardh]

Question:
We know that No.13 was 'about' 12 X 10 ft. We know the space (passage/landing) behind the partition was about 9 ft wide.

How long was the shed?

I found mention that the passage (from Dorset St into the court) was about 26ft 4in and the passage ended almost at the door to No.13. So by my calculations I make the shed to be about 15/20 ft long from Dorset St. frontage to the beginning of the 'landing' area (the 9ft wide landing).

[Wickerman]

Question:
We know that No.13 was 'about' 12 X 10 ft. We know the space (passage/landing) behind the partition was about 9 ft wide.

Richard.
For what its worth, the Star tells us room 13 was 12ft square, and the Daily Telegraph tell us it was 15ft square.
The Goad map shows us that room 13 at the back of No.26 was not square.



As 12ft is far too narrow for the width of a house, I'm inclined to believe the house was 15ft wide, which means the width of Kelly's room must be the same.
Therefore, the depth of Kelly's room (from window wall to partition) is something less than 15ft, likely 12ft in my opinion.

I found mention that the passage (from Dorset St into the court) was about 26ft 4in and the passage ended almost at the door to No.13.

The passage ends at the back wall of No.27, McCarthy's shop - check the Goad map above.

The passage stops close to 6ft short of the back wall of Kelly's room.
Kelly's side door in this photo will be a nominal 36" wide, and the shadow of the passage is almost parallel with one side of the door frame.
The wall from the corner to the other side of the door frame looks about as wide as the door. Therefore, in total approx 6ft from the corner to the beginning of the passage.

[Joshua Rogan]

As 12ft is far too narrow for the width of a house, I'm inclined to believe the house was 15ft wide, which means the width of Kelly's room must be the same.
Therefore, the depth of Kelly's room (from window wall to partition) is something less than 15ft, likely 12ft in my opinion.

A width of 12 feet does seem very narrow, but not unheard of - I once viewed a Georgian townhouse where you could touch both walls with outstretched arms! I agree though, 15ft looks a good estimate. Can the front elevation confirm this?

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=11

The passage stops close to 6ft short of the back wall of Kelly's room.
Kelly's side door in this photo will be a nominal 36" wide, and the shadow of the passage is almost parallel with one side of the door frame.
The wall from the corner to the other side of the door frame looks about as wide as the door. Therefore, in total approx 6ft from the corner to the beginning of the passage.

I think it's a bit less than 6ft, maybe as little as 4.5ft. The shadow from the arch seems at a slight angle to me, suggesting it extends over the doorway a little. I can only count 2 bricks from the corner of no.13 to the doorway, making it a likely maximum of 18 inches. And let's not forget that this is the distance that Mary and Joe would have had to reach from the window to the latch, so 3ft sounds too far to me. Even 2ft is a stretch when I try to reconstruct it (without any broken glass to avoid).

[Robert]

IIRC Bob Hinton did a thorough investigation of bricks, door, key etc and even built a mock-up room to try out. It's in his book "From Hell."

[GUT]

Looking at the photo showing the windows and the drawings that show where the windows were, I can buy 12'

[richardh]

Here's my plan so far:
I didn't jot down the dimensions - just count the squares



To walk around a 3D of this plan use the link (below) to download a VERY rough 3D which should allow you play the scene on your PC / MAC / LINUX

http://autumnofterror.com/files.html

LINK

I have done it this way as an experiment really because not many people seem to be able to open the online WebPlayer version. So this link is a download that will save a zip file to your PC/MAC/LINUX which you have to unzip to play.

Just a test so IF you decided to download and play it just remember that it is a very rough version of the plan above. I thought I'd show what I've done and get feed back. That way the layout (or my version of it) can be discussed and adjusted until we have something we ALL like. Then I can create a final textures and rendered version.

The file is safe - created by me on my PC using UNITY which is a TRUSTED gaming engine. Just Google UNITY 3D if you want to be sure.

thanks (hope it works!)

[curious4]

Here's my plan so far:
I didn't jot down the dimensions - just count the squares



To walk around a 3D of this plan use the link (below) to download a VERY rough 3D which should allow you play the scene on your PC / MAC / LINUX

http://autumnofterror.com/files.html

LINK

I have done it this way as an experiment really because not many people seem to be able to open the online WebPlayer version. So this link is a download that will save a zip file to your PC/MAC/LINUX which you have to unzip to play.

Just a test so IF you decided to download and play it just remember that it is a very rough version of the plan above. I thought I'd show what I've done and get feed back. That way the layout (or my version of it) can be discussed and adjusted until we have something we ALL like. Then I can create a final textures and rendered version.

The file is safe - created by me on my PC using UNITY which is a TRUSTED gaming engine. Just Google UNITY 3D if you want to be sure.

thanks (hope it works!)

Brilliant walk through! Dutfields Yard Thank you!

C4

[Joshua Rogan]

I still can't view your latest efforts, Richard (Safari cannot download the file, apparently), but the photos of the staircases above look good. One thing occurs to me though. As far as I can understand the details in the Kate Marshall trial, the victim Mrs Roberts came from her room, squeezed past her husband and sister who were struggling on the landing (in the corner, to the right of Amory's door) and sat down on the landing in from of Amory's door. It's not clearly said, but to me this seems to be at or near the top of the stairs going down. The police surgeon said there was a small pool of blood on the top steps, which seems to indicate this was where she sat.
Does anyone else agree? If so, does this indicate the stairs should go the other way?