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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1171  
Old 12-14-2018, 01:52 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
what about Hyam hyams? another mad jew who lived in the area.weve got jacob levy, kosminski, hyam hyams? David Cohen? how many other local crazy jews should we throw into the mix?

We might want to keep Cohen in the mix. Remember 254 Whitechapel Road?
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  #1172  
Old 12-20-2018, 09:09 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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More on Spitalfields market 1888 which I believe the ripper was headed to.

February 16 1888 Commission on Market and Tolls.


- Robert Horner: leasee of Spitalfields Market,since 12 years

(Sir Thomas Martineau)

Have you auctions in the market now? Not any.

You are going to use your proposed flower market as an auction room are you not? As an auction room and flower market.

And you either have established or propose to create a flower market? Yes,it will be ready by 1st of March,it is now nearly completed.

So you think that a want is felt for sales by auction? I think so; they seem to be wanting to come there to sell,because they show samples.The great bulk of the samples of fruit,and so on,come up by the Great Eastern via Harwich from Germany and France,and they can bring them into Spitalfields and show the samples,and there sell them...The auction is principally of foreign consignments.

There are three market days ...There is a market everyday but the growers come in three days. *(Tues,Thurs,Sat)

The greengrocers come there in the morning in the summer season at 3 or 4 o'clock,and they,some of them,stop for 2 or 3 hours there buying their goods.

Any vegetables that are left at the end pf the day are...bought more by higglers and men that stand hanging about;they are not quite costermomgers but
men who hang about the market and buy...pots it in the ground and sells it in the after part of the day and the next day.

..the costermongers are very useful people in clearing the market...: I have endeavoured to make roads through Spitalfields market,which there
were not before,so that a costermonger,at a given time in the morning,can bring his barrow into the market and load from a grower's
van,and so,save 1s or 1s 6d porterage....the costermonger can bring his vehicle to the market at 8 o'clock in the morning..."

The stall keepers get so mamy things stolen at night.There are four small streets belonging to the local authority,and what I have applied for
was to have gates to shut the market up at night,and they refused.


- Mr James Briggs: solicitor on behalf of Mr. Horner.

..the market gardeners attend the market as regular as ever they did.The salesmen deal more in the large fruit and potato business.

As regards foreign supplies,and supplies from a long distance,that is so.There necessarily must be salesmen in those cases.


- Mr. John Denton: costermonger,chiefly,Spitalfields Market

In Spitalfields we can buy cheaper than we can at other places....more people go there...more growers come there.


- Mr James Allen: farmer Dartford,Kent.

We sometime have something like 20 horses a day.

And you have standing rooms for waggons;have you any stall provided? Yes,we have room to pitch the fruit and those sort of
things,as well as standing room for the waggons.

Have you any office? No...we have a desk.

Would it be an advantage to you to have an sale by auction in the afternoon? I do not think so.I like rp sell my things and go home.


- Thomas Matthews,market gardener:

I send 12 waggons a week.

Formerly we were oblged to be there in the summer as early as two or three o'clock in the morning; the market used to begin at three
o'clock...Now you can get in at any time,and the buyer can bring his carts and unload the goods off the seller's waggons into his cart.



----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 12-20-2018 at 09:12 PM.
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  #1173  
Old 12-23-2018, 12:55 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Regarding Robert Horner's statement above "The great bulk of the samples of fruit,and so on,come up by the Great Eastern via Harwich from Germany and France..' the routes from France sort of did not make sense.
* He had 20,000 tons of potatoes,2000 sold to America,the rest to anybody including Spitalfields Market buyers but had lots of competition.


Harwich (Parkeston Quay) to London 6x daily 5:00 am (for steamers arriving from Rotterdam and Antwerp) 7:55 am 9:58 am 1:00 pm 3:10 pm 5:40 pm


- From Germany 3 routes to Harwich then to London:

Rotterdam to Harwich to London, daily except Sunday, depart 6:15 pm to 5:00 am arrive 6:50 am - 12 hrs 35 min

Antwerp to Harwich to London daily except Sunday depart 5:45 pm to 5:00 am arrive 6:50 am - 13 hrs 5 min

Hamburg To Harwich (steamers), Harwich to London, 3x a week depart 10:45 pm - Tue/Wed/Sat - 27 hrs 50 min
(this route including from Altes Land near Hamburg)

- From France it did not go to Harwich,Great Eastern did not pass Dover,Littlehampton,Newhaven,Folksetone which were/are across/destinations
on England from France - Calais,Honfleur/Caen,Dieppe,Boulogne/Calais respectively.There was also a St. Malo to Channel Islands to London route.
But still probably end in Liverpool Street station London and carted to Spitlafields market 4/few blocks away.



Sources:

1885 Charles Gillig's London Guide

Harwich (Parkeston Quay) to Rotterdam or Antwerp

https://books.google.com/books?id=QJ... YZexO&sig=E1N
HCqG-GliSYUQgweIkCVUW96s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5sqGmkr PfAhVLja0KHft_CIs4FBDoATAGegQIAhAB#v=onepage&q=par keston%20quay%20harwich%20to%20rot
terdam%2C&f=false


1892 London to Harwich.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ou...DVFXaIqwy2OWle
A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSwfGc57TfAhUO1qwKHZskD_UQ 6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=london%20to%20harwich%2 0at%208%20pm&f=false


Calais to Dover , Boulougne to Folksetone.

https://books.google.com/books?id=sN...illig%27s+new+
guide+to+London&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ-MDXlrPfAhUEaq0KHYYqCnsQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=parkes ton&f=false


Dieppe to Newhaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_o...CR_ferries.jpg


-------------

Autumn of terror probably had someting to do with produce in season in autumn sold at the Spitalfields Market.


Apples and pears harvested in August - November in Europe for the most part,depending on variety.

UK: Apples,ex. bramley variety

https://www.bramleyandteal.co.uk/gui...-pick-fruit-uk

Dutch: Apples,pears.Carrot,leek,cauliflower

-- agricultural supply heritage dates back to 1867,

http://www.svz.com/harvest-calendar/


In Germany,September-Nov


---
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
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  #1174  
Old 12-25-2018, 09:03 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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In 1888 only 2 trips to Hamburg/Harwich per week not 3 as in 1892.

Bradshaw Continental Guide, September 1888

Depart Liverpool Street Station at 8 pm,leaves Harwich at 10:00 pm to Hamburg every Wednesday and Saturday
Return from Hamburg Wednesday and Saturday evening. (27-28 hours)

In any case so my belief it was an apple/fruit salesman/seller from perhaps Altes Land or Calvados/Normandy - big apple producers,or buyer,
per Robert Horner's/Brigg's testimonies,fruits/samples - principally of foreign consignments,auction opening on March 1,1888 whichever fruit was in harvest.


Happy New Year all.



-------
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 12-25-2018 at 09:31 AM.
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  #1175  
Old 12-31-2018, 08:42 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Was curious about fruit auctions...so below so far I have found...
So the possible killer's auction dates were end of the month or first or near/until 8th of the month then resupply/come back.

Flower auctions page 590

https://books.google.com/books?id=aa...bl&ots=L1y w1
YOq2qsig=lbNk6DujDi9649bf21YfagcGv5ohl=ensa=Xved=2 ahUKEwibsv2Gi8vfAhVER60KHfRaA-wQ6AEwD3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=auction&f=false


Fruit auction/auctioneers page 136 - 137 although in US/1907, should be similar.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hD...s=G2oJbgv2X_&s
ig=sOR4eQaBibGALkTvZGssmpWKz6k&hl=ensa=Xved=2ahUKE wj1rIaAgMv fAhUJgK0KHXDZCH84ChDoATADegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=%20a uction%20&f=false


Only image so far I found on fruit auction,1901,although Covent garden,was more high-end than Spitalfields market.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-fr...-98164876.html



-----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
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  #1176  
Old 12-31-2018, 10:03 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Perhaps Spitalfields flower market/fruit auction entrance in 1888....

"young photographers Mark Jackson & Huw Davies set out to record the life of the market that operated on this site for over three centuries, before it closed forever in 1991."

http://spitalfieldslife.com/2010/09/...etable-market/


-----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
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  #1177  
Old 01-01-2019, 02:12 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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American fruit trade in Europe and a bit about the Hamburg fruit trade,though 1904.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Gp...uits:+With+Sta
tistics+of+the+Fruit+Trade+of&source=bl&ots=PpkHBZ OzyO&sig=KkPCaPx0dhv1YxkgQ84m3TY8-Qo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFzMbJvM3fA
hVER60KHfRaA-wQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=hamburg%20Foreign%20M arkets%20for%20American%20Fruits%3A%20With%20Stati stics%20
of%20the%20Fruit%20Trade%20of&f=false


-----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
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  #1178  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:10 AM
APerno APerno is offline
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For what it is worth this thread is 100+ replies in so I am not sure if the Keppel's report has been posted. So here it is (maybe again).

There is a typo on Table #2, page 18 and one factual error on page 9, (a "2:20" discovery of the apron) otherwise it is an interesting article.

A HITS evaluation supporting the Tabram connection is on page 17

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/HITS.pdf
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  #1179  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:31 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APerno View Post
There is a typo on Table #2, page 18 and one factual error on page 9, (a "2:20" discovery of the apron) otherwise it is an interesting article.
Not to mention confusing a report of the Nichols murder with that of Annie Chapman on page 6. Pretty shoddy.
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  #1180  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:20 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Speaking of page six:

"Suffice to say, Annie Chapman was killed in the darkness of morning."

Dawn was at 4:51 a.m., sunrise at 5:25 a.m., so I would humbly suggest that this is not a proven 'fact,' and is, indeed, very much in doubt. But we're a tough crowd.
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