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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #4111  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:22 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Hearts taken out - fact
Uteri taken out - fact
Abdominal walls cut away - fact
Rings missing - fact
Necks and throats severed - fact
Nosetips cut off - fact
Colon sections cut out - fact
Prostitute victims - fact
Both series in London - fact
Series overlapping - fact
Coincidences, exaggerations or overgeneralisations - fact

Also, it is emphatically NOT a fact that the 1873 torso victim had her "nosetip cut off". Quite the opposite, in reality - it was the UPPER part of her nose that was missing, not the tip.
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  #4112  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:23 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Statistics are inapplicable to guilt.
We are dealing with people,who act randomly/unpredictably.Out of the blue one person decides this, another decides that then things happen.That's it,it has nothing to do with statistics.Then one has to find evidence for those crimes.

-
It has a whole lot to do with statistics when it comes to how the police do their work.

You say that we are dealing with people who act randomly/unpredictably. To me, it seems they are doing nothing of the sort - if one of them does a very odd thing, it seems the other will do the same very odd thing too.

That´s not unpredictability, it´s more like predictability.

The fact that it CAN happen theoretically is what allows you to express your view. The fact that it will virtually never happen is what tells me that you are with an almost 100 per cent certainty wrong.
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  #4113  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:28 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Coincidences, exaggerations or overgeneralisations - fact
Then you should have no problems proving that. Facts are proven matters, see.

Then, when you have proven your suggestion (which is all it amounts too), we can discuss the 1884 Tottenham case - which was the one I was referring to.

And THEN we can discuss wether it is the cutting away of a nose that matters - or the exact amount of millimeters that were cut off.

Now, PROVE that the facts - which they are - I listed are "coincidences, exaggerations or overgeneralizations"!

Oh, but you can´t, can you? You just made it up, didn´t you?

The shame, Gareth. The shame.
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  #4114  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:32 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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To me, it seems they are doing nothing of the sort - if one of them does a very odd thing, it seems the other will do the same very odd thing too.

That´s not unpredictability, it´s more like predictability.
If you want to claim predictability, then why did so many of the similarities you claim only happen in a few of the torso cases, and only then if one loosens the criteria such that the emptying of the entire thorax becomes a simplistic "heart removed", and decapitation becomes a mere "cut neck"? (et cetera)
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  #4115  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:44 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Then, when you have proven your suggestion (which is all it amounts too), we can discuss the 1884 Tottenham case - which was the one I was referring to.
She'd also had her eyes taken out, quite unlike any other victim.
Quote:
Now, PROVE that the facts - which they are - I listed are "coincidences, exaggerations or overgeneralizations"!
The overgeneralisations and exaggerations speak for themselves, as any objective reading of the facts will demonstrate.
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Oh, but you can´t, can you? You just made it up, didn´t you?
I'm not the one who's making things up.
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The shame, Gareth. The shame.
More egotistical crowing.
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  #4116  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:24 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
She'd also had her eyes taken out, quite unlike any other victim.
The overgeneralisations and exaggerations speak for themselves, as any objective reading of the facts will demonstrate.
I'm not the one who's making things up.

More egotistical crowing.
How does the fact that the eyes are missing from the Tottenham torso make my statement that her nose was cut off a "coincidence, exagerration or overgeneralization"?

You say that the "overgeneralizations and exagerrations speak for themselves" - which is another way to say that you cannot prove it in any single case I made. So no, they do not speak for themselves, and no, it is not okay not to substantiate and prove your points.
Once more, Gareth, you are on the shamefullest of journeys here.

And you ARE the one making things up, as proven by how you cannot substantiate one single point you made. So the facts I listed ARE facts, and they DO stand.

Egotistical to me is when somebody is so fond of himself and his thinking that he is unable to admit when he is wrong. That is egotistical and counterproductive on the boards.
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  #4117  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:33 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If you want to claim predictability, then why did so many of the similarities you claim only happen in a few of the torso cases, and only then if one loosens the criteria such that the emptying of the entire thorax becomes a simplistic "heart removed", and decapitation becomes a mere "cut neck"? (et cetera)
Because the killers agenda was wide enough to harbor different inclusions in different murders - but the similarities nevertheless gives him away.

Both took out uteri, both took out hearts, both cut away... you know the list. It´s the same list that you failed do fault on any single point in your former post. That´s where there seems to have been a large measure of predictability.

I hope you are following the Original nightstalker case. It has much bearing on this thread, if you take a look at how the varying jurisdictions wised up as time went by; detectives said "Oh, that guy in the East area does the same thing as the Visalia ransacker did, he keeps many escape routes open" and "Oh, look how this man puts dishes in front of the doors, like alarms" and so on - signs of a common originator.

I thoroughly - thoroughly! - recommend an hur or two spent on the net to see how detectives reason in cases like these, what makes them go for a conclusion of one killer only. There are many cases where the polce knew they had a serial killer on their hands long before he was caught, and in many cases, it really did not take much for them to draw that conclusion.

It works from both sides. Not only is it an issue of sinilarities being there, but it is also the statistically based insight that one should not expect two serialists being on the prowl in the same area and time. Weighed together in our case, the only logical conclusion is one of a single killer.
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  #4118  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:38 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
How does the fact that the eyes are missing from the Tottenham torso make my statement that her nose was cut off a "coincidence, exagerration or overgeneralization"?
Quite right. It comes under another heading, namely "only telling part of the story", ie the part that suits your argument.
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  #4119  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:40 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Your statistical argument is flawed.
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  #4120  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:46 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quite right. It comes under another heading, namely "only telling part of the story", ie the part that suits your argument.
Alternatively, it comes under the heading "Trying to explain away by suggesting alternative takes on things".
Then again, what do I know - that is not my department.

You commented on a list I had made, stating ten points of similarities.

You criticism was not that other material needed to be added. It was that the facts in the list were "coincidences, exagerrations and overgeneralizations".

You have miserably - and predictably - failed to sustain that argument. And so now you try to bring other matters into the discussion.

It will in no way cover what you did, Gareth. And how wrong it was.

Last edited by Fisherman : 05-15-2018 at 12:50 AM.
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