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  #1  
Old 02-12-2016, 01:24 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Default Pawn tickets in Mitre Square

Hi,

The police foud a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets on Catherine Eddowes. On one was written the name Emily Birrell and the adress 52 White´s Row, on the other was the name Jane Kelly and the adress 6 Dorset Street.

There seem to be some problems with the provenience of the pawn tickets:

1. Both of the adresses where false.

2. John Kelly, who had lived with Eddowes, told the police that a woman called Emily Birrell had given them the pawn ticket with that name on it. But the name Emily Birrell was in the newspapers before John Kelly went to the police. So he could have learned about the name from the papers.

3. At the inquest, John Kelly did not know the date of the pawning of his own boots for the other pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly.

Questions:

A) Could John Kelly have had any reason to lie about the pawn tickets found on Eddowes?

B) Two false adresses in a mustard tin – why should the name Emily Birrell be authentic?

C) There is no evidence for an Emily Birrell giving a pawn ticket to Eddowes. Why?

D) Why was that ticket dated 31 August?

E) Why is the adress Dorset Street on the pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly and why this special combination?

Regards, Pierre
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  #2  
Old 02-12-2016, 07:25 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hes Baaaaaaack.

welcome back Pierre. as you can see several posters have been keeping your spirit alive.

as for your post and questions-I have no idea but I would imagine what your getting at is that your suspect planted the fake pawn tickets on her? am I warm?
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  #3  
Old 02-12-2016, 10:51 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi,

The police foud a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets on Catherine Eddowes. On one was written the name Emily Birrell and the adress 52 White´s Row, on the other was the name Jane Kelly and the adress 6 Dorset Street.

There seem to be some problems with the provenience of the pawn tickets:

1. Both of the adresses where false.

2. John Kelly, who had lived with Eddowes, told the police that a woman called Emily Birrell had given them the pawn ticket with that name on it. But the name Emily Birrell was in the newspapers before John Kelly went to the police. So he could have learned about the name from the papers.

3. At the inquest, John Kelly did not know the date of the pawning of his own boots for the other pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly.

Questions:

A) Could John Kelly have had any reason to lie about the pawn tickets found on Eddowes?

B) Two false adresses in a mustard tin – why should the name Emily Birrell be authentic?

C) There is no evidence for an Emily Birrell giving a pawn ticket to Eddowes. Why?

D) Why was that ticket dated 31 August?

E) Why is the adress Dorset Street on the pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly and why this special combination?

Regards, Pierre
a) Conceivably.
b) They spent time hopping with her, slept in a barn with her, if she misidentified herself then its she you should be questioning.
c) There is no evidence that Kate and John went to 2 pawn houses, the Birrell ticket was issued from a different pawnbroker.
d) Because that was the date it was issued on. Not Saturday, as John first claimed.
e) The only real point of interest raised by this line of questioning.
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  #4  
Old 02-12-2016, 11:09 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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I used to work in the pawn industry, and fake adddresses were a matter of course before laws requiring photo ID. And even still it's a problem because people will claim to no longer live at the address on their ID, and give a fake one. And a fake phone number. And a fake name if they can manage it.

The reason why is very simple. If I sell a ring to a pawn shop, I get maybe max retail value -30%. However pawning something is done under a contract that you are going to come back for it. So the same ring pawned might get you retail value x 2. Way more money. The easiest way to get the most money is to pawn something with the goal of abandoning it. The pawn shop will come after you, but not if you gave a fake address or phone number. Which is easy to do.

Now over the years the pawn shops have adjusted to this reality, but it's been within my lifetime. So back then it was just a way to cheat the pawn shop.

So the name might be real because the woman was known at least peripherally to the pawn shop. She might have pawned there before. A fake address keeps people from knocking on her door demanding payment. And even if she had every intention of coming back for the items, she still would have lied in case she couldn't come up with the payment. Pawnbrokers were and still are very insistent. And you do sign a valid contract agreeing to pay back the money.

That part doesn't surprise me at all. Nor does it arouse any suspicion.

Nor is it uncommon for a wife to pawn some of her husbands belongings. It does not require his consent, though if he challenges it in court he might get it back without paying. The assumption is that the couple agreed to it and the wife is doing it because she has the free time during the week. But tools and mens items are mostly to this day pawned by women. Now without a legal relationship between the Kellys, the transaction is void. But the Pawn shop doesn't know that unless they are informed. And even then the woman is going to jail and the man likely still has to pay to get his stuff. Or the woman does, and likely can't. Either way the pawn shop rarely loses these battles. It's quite mercenary.

So him not remembering the day the boots disappeared doesn't surprise me either. Unless they were his only pair of shoes, and then you'd expect that to stick out in his mind.
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  #5  
Old 02-12-2016, 11:13 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Catherine Eddowes accepting a 9d pawn ticket from Emily Burrell for an unseen flannel shirt which may or may not have fitted John Kelly, and which, with interest and the pawn ticket fee, would have cost her 10½d to find out, does not make a great deal of sense, fiscal or otherwise, to a cash-strapped couple allegedly having to walk from Maidstone to London.

Regards,

Simon
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  #6  
Old 02-12-2016, 12:08 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Catherine Eddowes accepting a 9d pawn ticket from Emily Burrell for an unseen flannel shirt which may or may not have fitted John Kelly, and which, with interest and the pawn ticket fee, would have cost her 10½d to find out, does not make a great deal of sense, fiscal or otherwise, to a cash-strapped couple allegedly having to walk from Maidstone to London.
Hi Simon,

Would it have made fiscal sense if the flannel shirt was worth more than 10½d?
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  #7  
Old 02-12-2016, 12:20 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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How would Catherine Eddowes or John Kelly have known?

Regards,

Simon
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  #8  
Old 07-24-2016, 08:20 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Default Fiscal Sense

[quote=David Orsam;371454]

Hi,

there was a question posed here by David some time ago concerning another question posed by Simon. Simon wrote:

Quote:
Catherine Eddowes accepting a 9d pawn ticket from Emily Burrell for an unseen flannel shirt which may or may not have fitted John Kelly, and which, with interest and the pawn ticket fee, would have cost her 10½d to find out, does not make a great deal of sense, fiscal or otherwise, to a cash-strapped couple allegedly having to walk from Maidstone to London.
David answered with a question and wrote:

Quote:
Would it have made fiscal sense if the flannel shirt was worth more than 10½d?
I will now give my answer to this question.

1. Pawn tickets themselves had a market value, as opposed to the items they represented. You could sell pawn tickets on this market for a smaller sum than the value of the item (Ross, 1993, Love and Toil. Motherhood in Outcast London 1870-1918, p. 251).

2. Pawn tickets were stolen and sold on that market (ibid.).

3. People were sentenced to jail for stealing and selling pawn tickets (ibid.).

4. Both of the addresses on the pawn tickets found in the mustard tin where false. The probability for the name Kelly being the only true information on that ticket is therefore low.

5. The name Jane Kelly was false. The probability for the name Emily Birrell being true is therefore low.


6. We see the name of John Kelly and think that he is the explanation for the name "Kelly" on the pawn ticket with the name "Jane Kelly". But that is probably wrong, given point 4. It is probably a coincidence.

7. John Kelly told the police that a woman called Emily Birrell had given them the pawn ticket with that name on it. But the name Emily Birrell was in the newspapers before John Kelly went to the police. So he could have learned about the name from the papers.

8. Given the market and punishments for stolen pawn tickets, there is a strong reason to think that there is a tendency in the sources for the testimony from John Kelly about the pawn tickets. It is not controversial to hypothesize that he wanted to protect himself and the memory of Eddowes.

9. Given that he sees his surname in the papers and obtains the knowledge about the two pawn tickets through the papers before he contacts the police, there is reason to think he wanted to protect himself and the woman. This is important to acknowledge and it is not controversial.

10. Therefore, he had a motive for explaining the pawn ticket with his name on it. Therefore, there is a risk that he invented the story about the boots. This must be taken into consideration.

11. John Kelly knew that Eddowes sold some things on the streets. This knowledge might very well have included selling pawn tickets, since there was a market for it.

So YES, David - It would have made fiscal sense if the flannel shirt was worth more than 10½d. It would have made fiscal sense since there was a market where Eddowes could sell the tickets and get more for those tickets the higher the value for the items they represented.

BUT David, THIS is not the issue here. The issue is that you can not take the testimonies of people in the past, who have lived in poverty and criminality, and believe that they just simply told everyone the truth at a murder inquest!

As you see, there are many problems with these pawn tickets. There is no Emily Birrell corroborating what John Kelly said, Eddowes was a prostitute, the names and addresses on the pawn tickets where FALSE. And they were found at a murder site.

This is why I ask questions, David. And this is why you have not been able to answer my questions, although you try to make people here think that you know the answers.

But I do not ask YOU, David. I ask THE PAST. I am an historian. And these were my initial questions in this thread, and here I give some hypothetical answers, and they are deduced from the past:

Quote:
Questions:

A) Could John Kelly have had any reason to lie about the pawn tickets found on Eddowes?
Yes. There was a market for pawn tickets. You could be sentenced to jail for selling pawn tickets. The names and addresses on the pawn tickets were false. One of them had John´s surname on it. Eddowes was selling things on the streets.

Quote:
B) Two false adresses in a mustard tin – why should the name Emily Birrell be authentic?
Given the answers to A, there is no reason at all to believe that it should. There is no source corroborating John Kelly´s testimony.

Quote:
C) There is no evidence for an Emily Birrell giving a pawn ticket to Eddowes. Why?
Because there was no Emily Birrell giving away pawn tickets to people. I.e., not in the sources from the past. The only source (!) is problematic.

Quote:
D) Why was that ticket dated 31 August?
There is a reason to hypothesize that the pawn ticket was placed in Mitre Square by the killer. There is a reason to hypothesize that the date for the murder of Polly Nichols and the name and address for Mary Jane Kelly are clues. The pawn tickets in the mustard tin contained the full name of the killer. There is a reason to hypothesize that the killer taunted the police.

All of these reasons should be considered in the light of the problems with the provenience of the contents in the mustard tin.

And they are merely hypotheses and should be disproved. So that is the priority now.

Quote:
E) Why is the adress Dorset Street on the pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly and why this special combination?
It was the next victim.

So, the conclusion is that "fiscal sense" = the higher the value for the item pawned, the higher the value when selling the pawn ticket on the market for pawn tickets. This means that it would have had "fiscal sense" if the flannel shirt was worth more than 10½d and it also had a fiscal sense to anyone who could sell such a pawn ticket whatever the value of the item.

But this question, as many other questions posed by you, David, is totally without scientific sense. You only take a lot of time, discussing nothing in absurdum.

If you have anything at all to contribute - except from telling others that you "have told them" - please do so. I have many questions right now, I am obliged to answer them, and my wish is to disprove every hypothesis. You tried to do that - at least I think you thought that you did - but failed. And it did not help the case.

Regards, Pierre
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  #9  
Old 02-12-2016, 12:24 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
I used to work in the pawn industry
Thank God this is a message-board in written text, and not a podcast
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:42 PM
Errata Errata is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Thank God this is a message-board in written text, and not a podcast
I'd like to think my staunchly American accent would have made it less confusing than an English one
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