Did Jack only kill 3?

[Roy Corduroy]

Why were a number of unconnected murders officially placed under the auspices of a fictitious JtR?

This is the essence of the real Whitechapel mystery.

Good evening Simon,

Let's take a hypothetical and assume you are correct. That these were unconnected murders, each and every one.

Are you suggesting the police investigated each and every murder thoroughly enough to be certain that these were unconnected, yet the murders were nonethesless officially placed under the auspices of a ficticous JTR?

Or are you saying the police did not investigate each and every murder enough to know that these were unconnected, and that they mistakenly placed the murders under the auspices of a ficticous JTR.

Or is it something else?

Roy

[Phil Carter]

Bottom line, after 124 years, we know nothing..

Hello Greg,

Well, not quite nothing. We know the Jack the Ripper epitaph was a newpaperman's invention. We know that the police, for a while at least, believed the invention and pushed the idea. (letter and postcard Dear Boss+Saucy Jack=posters). We know that the police didnt seem to have a clue until lo and behold their retirement memoirs were published. And we know that people left right and centre have been taken in by clever authors and idea makers like Stephen Knight and Joseph Gorman.

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Out of the mouths of babes.
Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Indeed. An example again shown and quoted, above.. Lol

On a serious note, genuinely, how's the book coming along? Publisher lined up yet?

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hello Greg,

Well, not quite nothing. We know the Jack the Ripper epitaph was a newpaperman's invention. We know that the police, for a while at least, believed the invention and pushed the idea. (letter and postcard Dear Boss+Saucy Jack=posters). We know that the police didnt seem to have a clue until lo and behold their retirement memoirs were published. And we know that people left right and centre have been taken in by clever authors and idea makers like Stephen Knight and Joseph Gorman.

Best wishes

Phil

Sorry Phil,

How do we know the 'Jack the Ripper' epitaph was a newsmans invention? Have I missed this conclusive fact?

Also, there's a difference between following a line of enquiry and belief, the Police followed a line of enquiry.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Good evening Simon,

Let's take a hypothetical and assume you are correct. That these were unconnected murders, each and every one.

Are you suggesting the police investigated each and every murder thoroughly enough to be certain that these were unconnected, yet the murders were nonethesless officially placed under the auspices of a ficticous JTR?

Or are you saying the police did not investigate each and every murder enough to know that these were unconnected, and that they mistakenly placed the murders under the auspices of a ficticous JTR.

Or is it something else?

Roy

Hello Roy,

(Forgive me Simon...)

I will venture to comparing Simon Wood to a snooker player facing an awkward snooker.
He may have found an angle or two, but we wont see it until he looks down the end of the cue, and shows us his shot.
i do know one thing. Sometimes it takes a combination of angles to find the answer to the snooker.

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

No need to apologise.
Have you any evidence the epitaph wasnt started by an inventive newspapeman that has generally been accepted to be thenvemtor? That would be interesting to read.
Conclusive facts in this case are at a premium. There is nothing conclusive linking 'Jack the Ripper' to Stride's demise either.
Here's a billiard's term you'll understand Im sure.
Side spin.
And the last 124years is full of it in Ripper related police memoirs.

It's a shame the chalk writing wasnt from a small cube. 'cannon' was a popular make at the time in billiards..lol

Best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

I believe the key to the C5 murder is the total inability of every researcher to discover the slightest trace of one Mary Jane Kelly. One of the genre's very very best researchers, Chris Scott, has turned over more stones surrounding MJK than most all others. With his brilliant work in mind, I have concluded that MJK was not the true name of the C5 victim. That, in turn, opens up many a possibility. Here may, just may, lie the link to Irish Fenianism first mentioned not in 1956 in book form, but 1920 in newspaper form in an epitaph. Even this reference may originate in the newspaper articles from 1888 itself, when writing that specialised Irish anti-Fenian policemen were ushered into the fray. And all of this may single out Kelly from Eddowes.
However, one has to admit it being speculative at present.

Hi Phil,
The problem is that whenever it is proposed that MJK may have been murdered because she had Irish connections and her murder Fenian related or that she was some sort of Fenian spy or informant re-located to live in Whitechapel and tracked down; even when an open-minded researcher reading those ideas thinks, OK, let's look at the possibility of this and begins to ask questions about such a scenario happening, the person who proposed the idea clammed up and won't answer the glaring problems highlighted with it. I'm thinking of a particular identity once proposed for MJK here recently and when detailed questions were asked about things that didn't really add up (a few facts got in the way!) the shutters were slammed down without a word of explanation and what can only amount to excuses made.

It's very annoying to sit here and read about those of 'us' who just sit back and accept the same old same old by people who aren't willing to put their own ideas up to closer scrutiny. They propose an idea and as soon as someone looks a bit closer and finds problems and asks about them they scurry off and hide behind some excuse or other as to why they can't say any more!

[Monty]

Hi Phil,
The problem is that whenever it is proposed that MJK may have been murdered because she had Irish connections and her murder Fenian related or that she was some sort of Fenian spy or informant re-located to live in Whitechapel and tracked down; even when an open-minded researcher reading those ideas thinks, OK, let's look at the possibility of this and begins to ask questions about such a scenario happening, the person who proposed the idea clammed up and won't answer the glaring problems highlighted with it. I'm thinking of a particular identity once proposed for MJK here recently and when detailed questions were asked about things that didn't really add up (a few facts got in the way!) the shutters were slammed down without a word of explanation and what can only amount to excuses made.

It's very annoying to sit here and read about those of 'us' who just sit back and accept the same old same old by people who aren't willing to put their own ideas up to closer scrutiny. They propose an idea and as soon as someone looks a bit closer and finds problems and asks about them they scurry off and hide behind some excuse or other as to why they can't say any more!

Excellent post Debs. Sums it up perfectly.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

What you dont know always annoys.

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

I humbly suggest you ask around a bit. You might be surprised by what you are told.

Best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

No need to apologise.
Have you any evidence the epitaph wasnt started by an inventive newspapeman that has generally been accepted to be thenvemtor? That would be interesting to read.
Conclusive facts in this case are at a premium. There is nothing conclusive linking 'Jack the Ripper' to Stride's demise either.
Here's a billiard's term you'll understand Im sure.
Side spin.
And the last 124years is full of it in Ripper related police memoirs.

It's a shame the chalk writing wasnt from a small cube. 'cannon' was a popular make at the time in billiards..lol

Best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

I'm not stating that "We know the Jack the Ripper epitaph was a newpaperman's invention". You did.

I haven't the evidence to prove either was, that's why I wouldn't have stated such a thing. I wondered, as you did state such a thing, if there was something I missed.

It seems there wasn't and this 'knowledge' is assumption.

Yep, not everythings conclusive.


Monty

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,

What you dont know always annoys.

Best wishes

Phil

Excuses.

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

I humbly suggest you ask around a bit. You might be surprised by what you are told.

Best wishes

Phil

I have, often Phil. As can been seen here on these boards.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

I have, often Phil. As can been seen here on these boards.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Excellent.

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

update

Hello Debs. Looking at your post, an update may be needed. Hope that this is tangential to the OP's original intent and not too far off topic.

I have been researching 3 people who have connections to the various Irish groups in the 1880's. The idea was that one of them may have been relocated and named MJK. They are:

1. Miss Kennedy

2. Miss Worth

3. Alice Carroll

Miss Kennedy is off the table. She apparently married her Irish connection (no pun intended) and moved to America.

Miss Worth (whom I assume was using a nom de plume) is still on the table. Cannot find a trace of her or her notorious boarding house. Nor can I establish just how closely she had worked with "Mr. Dawson" (AKA Llewellyn Winter). She is definitely in the mix.

Alice Carroll, as you discovered, was in Dublin in 1887. If she had been there continuously between 1882 and 1887, she would be an EXTREMELY poor candidate.

Cheers.
LC