Did the 5 canonical victims know each other?

[perrymason]

"Casus belli" = "corset"

A bit of trivia, Mike... you may know that in Herman Melville's novelette, Billy Budd, the name of Cpt Vere's ship is the Bellipotent. When Benjamin Britten came to write his opera of the story, he thought that the name of the ship sounded rather rude - the combination of "belly" and "potent" being too much for his delicate middle-class sensibilities. Instead, Britten and E.M. Forster (who wrote the libretto) chose to use Indomitable, which was Melville's name for the ship in an earlier version of the book.

Is that sort of the same reason that John Hancock of the Declaration of Independence changed his name from John Footpenis?

Its a Family Guy joke...only throw soft stones please.

Best regards.

[Malcolm X]

I do think that type of crime, and the Torso's, and a copycat murder like Alice, stabbing death like Marthas and the gang attacks adds up to plenty of unsavory types, in the area... co-existing. The East End didnt belong to Jack....he was just the most threatening. He was the only one aside from the Torso man that we can safely assume worked multiple times.

Best regards.

yes but before this era and after it, there was a much lower murder rate and these attacks started before the Ripper, the Ripper was in the middle of a crime spree and far worst than the others, or the other person..

i've always thought that there were 2 serial killers at large, the other one being the Torso killer and a few of the others too, especially McKenzie; but she could be the Rippers too.

[perrymason]

Actually Malcolm, it appears that the murder rates in 1888 for that neck of the woods were consistent with previous years stats....there was no appreciable spike in overall murders when Jack arrived. The way they were committed changed.

AP Wolf mentioned this on another thread recently.

We know that a man killed at least some of the Canonicals, and we have reason to suspect he didnt also cut women into Torsos...since thats the part Jack mutilates, so we can be fairly sure at least 2 serial killers were present in London at that time. Now look at Martha...if not a "serial" victim, a brutal one. Could that guy have killed others too? Maybe. Alice McKenzie starts up the whole Ripper mania with the police the next late spring, if she isnt Jacks, it was someone who liked his style.

Best regards.

[Malcolm X]

Actually Malcolm, it appears that the murder rates in 1888 for that neck of the woods were consistent with previous years stats....there was no appreciable spike in overall murders when Jack arrived. The way they were committed changed.

AP Wolf mentioned this on another thread recently.

We know that a man killed at least some of the Canonicals, and we have reason to suspect he didnt also cut women into Torsos...since thats the part Jack mutilates, so we can be fairly sure at least 2 serial killers were present in London at that time. Now look at Martha...if not a "serial" victim, a brutal one. Could that guy have killed others too? Maybe. Alice McKenzie starts up the whole Ripper mania with the police the next late spring, if she isnt Jacks, it was someone who liked his style.

Best regards.

ok....... i'm cool on that

yes the torso murders are totally different, they're done to hide the victims identity, plus to dispose of the body easily.........this suggests that the killer knew the victims well...very well.

Martha doesn't look like the Ripper's at all, but A. Mckenzie does, or somebody similar to him but far less experienced.... it definitely looks like 2, or even more killers.

the Torso murders look organised, but the others look like a disorganised killer..........if the same Torso killer had a car nowadays, you'd see the body parts littered all over our country.... he didn't so he had to dump them close to home..................my outside bet for these murders is G.Chapman

[Cap'n Jack]

Good thoughts, but one needs to tread with caution when it comes to the Torso murders of the LVP, for one of the most famous cases actually involved a female killer; and many other cases appear to be the results of botched abortions; and still others could have been the result of Thames boatmen splitting entire bodies to make more money from their finds.
As tempting as it might be to see the Torso murders as a series with a common killer at the helm, I think them to be more the result of the day to day grind of life in the LVP... I believe that more than 230 corpses were found in the Thames in the period we discuss, and many of 'em the result of murder.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

"Casus belli" = "corset"

A bit of trivia, Mike... you may know that in Herman Melville's novelette, Billy Budd, the name of Cpt Vere's ship is the Bellipotent. When Benjamin Britten came to write his opera of the story, he thought that the name of the ship sounded rather rude - the combination of "belly" and "potent" being too much for his delicate middle-class sensibilities. Instead, Britten and E.M. Forster (who wrote the libretto) chose to use Indomitable, which was Melville's name for the ship in an earlier version of the book.

And Herman Melville's novel,Moby Dick was initially named........?

[perrymason]

Good thoughts, but one needs to tread with caution when it comes to the Torso murders of the LVP, for one of the most famous cases actually involved a female killer; and many other cases appear to be the results of botched abortions; and still others could have been the result of Thames boatmen splitting entire bodies to make more money from their finds.
As tempting as it might be to see the Torso murders as a series with a common killer at the helm, I think them to be more the result of the day to day grind of life in the LVP... I believe that more than 230 corpses were found in the Thames in the period we discuss, and many of 'em the result of murder.

Hi Ap, nice to speak with you....

I know youre a Old Bailey addict, so perhaps you know better what I think I remember....wasnt there a Torso or 2 that pre-dated Pinchin and Whitehall by a few years?

Its an act I dont see too far astray from the killer called Jack, in that Mary is but a few chops short of becoming one. But you shocked me when you play down the significance of a finding a human cut up....cause if it was so insignificant in the big scheme....then what are we bothering about here?

Im a pure amateur...I dont study serial killers or crimes, and Im a limited historian at best....so from that point of view, "Jacks" acts to me seem so specific that they could only have been committed by very few people in a general population the size of Greater London at the time. For the skills required and the guts or desire to stomach the work.

And Im talking about just Jacks acts...not The Canonical 5....Polly, Annie and perhaps Kate, IMHO.

Was this guy a Unicorn....or not really?

All the best AP.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

And Herman Melville's novel,Moby Dick was initially named........?

Time's up-"The Whale".

Now what do you find in the bottom of some bird cages that starts with "sh" & ends in "it"?
Yep-shellgrit!

[jodi]

About the Britannia

Where can I find out more about the Britannia Pub?

Hi Bill,

Some did frequent some of the same places like The Britannia, but no link has ever been found to suggest that they specifically knew each other...and by extension, they might also know the man who killed them.

There is one case that intrigues me personally though, and its that Catherine Eddowes uses a version of Mary Kellys name and her address the night before she dies, on a pawn ticket for Johns boots...Jane Kelly of Dorset St. She also uses Mary Kelly of Fashion Street with Hutt in the Police Station Saturday night/Sunday morning.

With Mary being the next victim, and Kate effectively being identified as Mary Kelly, by herself,..... the night she is killed...it does make for interesting fodder.

Cheers.

[The Grave Maurice]

Where can I find out more about the Britannia Pub?

You could start here.

[Sam Flynn]

Where can I find out more about the Britannia Pub?

It was more of a "beer-shop", Jodi - and its dimensions were rather modest:



(Blue ellipse = the Britannia)