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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #1001  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:53 AM
Ally Ally is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
Theres many experts in the field who totally disagree with your assumption.
Lol..really, and what experts are those? And it's not an assumption. It's a fact. There are linguistic anachronisms.
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Last edited by Ally : 09-14-2017 at 05:55 AM.
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  #1002  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:55 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Observer View Post
The situation can't be put any plainer JG.

The thing is, both the believers in Maybrick being Jack The Ripper, and those believing it to be an "old" hoax, are far too entrenched in their beliefs to change their ways. Some I suspect have a vested interest in those beliefs. I do not think that the book being discussed in this thread will be the last book to be written with regard to the Maybrick Diary.

I accept that the individuals described above, are entitled to use the same argument when questioning we who realise that the Diary is a modern hoax. However, looking at all the evidence I believe we have the upper hand by some distance. I can't see any change though in the foreseeable future. I believe the subject to be the ultimate stalemate.

It would be interesting to see the outcome of a poll on the subject, where not only Casebook members are allowed to vote, but also individuals who follow these threads, of which there are many.
I've always been interested in Maybrick, and when the Ripper stuff came about, I was in awe of the possibility. I think it's the same for others, they're romantically persuaded by the story and the drama of it all.

That being said, whenever I brought it up with anyone, people just smiled. I've yet to meet one person in the outside world who believes that the diary was genuinely written by Maybrick, or that Maybrick was a killer, never mind possibly the most notorious killer in history.

If people are actually weighing up the probabilities and looking at the whole facts, I cannot possibly see why anyone would think it was the real-deal, or why they'd assume it was an old hoax.

Logic dictates that the provenance is fraught with inconsistencies, the entire story is riddled with confused lies, the diary itself is questionable in that it contains red flags re: handwriting, out-of-dates phrases and pub names, etc.

Anyone looking at it with an open mind would find it hard to keep making a pass for these red flags.

Once the provenance is sketchy, and the lies start rolling in, the already dubious should become even more dubious.

Yet time and again, people seem willing to ignore these inconsistencies and make allowances for them.

Round and round we go. Plain and simple, some people just prefer to believe in the story, and why not? It's a decent bit of fiction that has it all, romance, drama, murder, affairs, poetry, the whole works.

It's the same with Roswell, people love the idea that it was aliens, crash-landing.

Bigfoot, hey, it's not a bloke in a suit, it's a giant ape-man that evaded detection.

Nessie, it's not a melting pot of misidentification and fabrication, it really is a holdover from a prehistoric peridod.

People love the fiction and discard the fact, because they don't find reality interesting enough.
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  #1003  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:56 AM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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I think certain people need to be gently reminded that the burden of proof does not lie with doubters. We all have our reasoning and our arguments, and we all (hopefully) want the truth, but the burden of proof does not lie with the skeptic. This isn't like a courtroom trial where the Diary is innocent until proven guilty, not at all.

This is an extraordinary claim being made: The JtR mystery has been finally solved by the discovery of his secret diary in which he confesses all!

It's an extraordinary claim, and like all extraordinary claims - I filmed Bigfoot / I have Hitler's Diaries / the bronze-age tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews rules the cosmos and stands in judgment over your life / Bush did 9-11 / the Mob-CIA-anti-Castro-Cuban exiles killed Kennedy - etc - it requires seriously compelling evidence.

To say that its critics have !!!NO PROOF!!! that it's fake is utterly irrelevant. Proof, as such, may not exist, there might prove to be no smoking gun, but it's not a skeptic's job to disprove an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof lies with its proponents, Kaz .

We're entitled to say based on what we already know that we can reject the claims made on its behalf. It was introduced to the world by a man who had gone to some effort to acquire an unused or partially used Victorian diary. He confessed to forging it, then retracted his confession. The latest evidence consists of ... wait for it, drumroll please... electricians' timesheets! Those electricians deny any involvement, and any hypothetical reconstructions of their actions that day make no sense whatsoever. In other words we have an incredibly unlikely artifact (The diary confession of Jack the friggin Ripper, folks!) whose provenance is an absolute shambles - what are up to now, three different versions of how the thing came to light?

It contains fairly clear anachronisms, and at least one verbatim borrowing from a later book.

We don't NEED 'proof' to reject it on this basis alone. The burden of proof is on those who assert that it is genuine.

Last edited by Henry Flower : 09-14-2017 at 06:00 AM.
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  #1004  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:58 AM
StevenOwl StevenOwl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
James did spend time between the US and UK offices of his company, but to say he'd suddenly start using American phrases because of this is a bit of a stretch.
I'm not suggesting it was sudden; I'm merely pointing out that JM could have developed certain Americanisms over the 6 year period when his time was divided equally between the UK and US. I personally think it's far more of a stretch to say that he wouldn't have used any Americanisms at all.
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  #1005  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:00 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Hayes View Post
Hey everyone, Iíve got an idea, itís a bit radical but bear with me Ö.

Maybe only people who are actually interested in the diary should post on this thread. Or any other diary thread.

Instead of people saying itís an obvious forgery, itís full of errors, Maybrickís not a serious suspect etc etc.

If you think itís a fake, donít read the thread or post anything, which will save us all a lot of time.

Otherwise it just falls into the sarcastic Ďyou canít really still believe this is real?í type of post which doesnít benefit anyone.

The outcome will be that anyone whoís actually interested in the diary, for whatever reason, will be able to read a thread that may actually be informative & surely thatís beneficial to everyone?
So, what you're saying is that this thread should be a circle-jerk for believers to pat each each other on the back and talk about how dastardly Sir Jim was? lol. Yeah, awesome idea, mate.

This is a thread regarding the diary, and thus Maybrick, and it's not exlusive to people who believe it to be real, and nor should it be. You might as well ask every single thread on here be left to the people who believe in it, which means you cast aside actual debate, something every aspect of the case warrants.

Bit of a silly suggestion, tbh.
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  #1006  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:03 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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It's religion vs. science, faith vs. reason all over again. The burden of proof lies with the diarists to prove it's authentic. The hoaxers/atheists can point to all manner of contradictions, errors and inconsistencies within the text but the theists/diarists won't budge because they have blindly submitted to the unfounded belief that it's the real deal.
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  #1007  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:04 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
HERE HERE!!


Many of these naysayers don't even have full evidence at their disposal ... and are using so called 'proof' which is flimsy to say the least (handwriting of James for example).

Anyway, its all fun and games.. I'll carry on being open minded about it all!

MUCH more detective work is needed. Theres real EVIDENCE out there thats yet to be discovered, I'm damn sure!
Then every suspect you do not consider to be valid, you should refrain from posting about? Have I got that right?

So the only person posting about Lech should be Fish and his mate?

Yeah, that's how reasoned debate and analysis works! Erm, no it's not.

The whole point in anything Ripper-related is surely about reasoned debate.

You believers seem decidedly threatened and hurt by the fact that someone would have the gall to ask you for evidence, something you're sorely lacking.

I'm amazed at how totally illogical some posters here actually are, and wonder if they have any interest in scepticism or critical thinking whatsoever.
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  #1008  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:05 AM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
So, what you're saying is that this thread should be a circle-jerk for believers to pat each each other on the back and talk about how dastardly Sir Jim was? lol. Yeah, awesome idea, mate.

This is a thread regarding the diary, and thus Maybrick, and it's not exlusive to people who believe it to be real, and nor should it be. You might as well ask every single thread on here be left to the people who believe in it, which means you cast aside actual debate, something every aspect of the case warrants.

Bit of a silly suggestion, tbh.
Yeah, he introduced the idea as 'a bit radical'. Other adjectives might also apply.
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  #1009  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:07 AM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Ally View Post
Lol...I'll overlook the continued abuse of the word "proof" to point out that there is far more evidence that it's a forgery than there is evidence that it's authentic. There is literally zero evidence that points to it being real and several pieces of evidence that points to it being a fake.

There is not a single compelling piece of evidence that points to it being genuine. Period. This is not a case where both sides have a compelling argument and evidence.
I'm afraid your very sensible post will only fall on blind eyes and deaf ears. You're apparently not dealing with people who're interested in actual logical debate. This is supposed to be a circle-jerk of Maybrick fans, holding each others hand and clicking their ruby slippers together...

There's no place like home, there's no place like home...
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  #1010  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:07 AM
Kaz Kaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post

This is a thread regarding the diary, and thus Maybrick, and it's not exlusive to people who believe it to be real, and nor should it be. You might as well ask every single thread on here be left to the people who believe in it, which means you cast aside actual debate, something every aspect of the case warrants.

One of your fellow anti-diarists claims we shouldn't be besmirching a dead mans name....


Lets all just stop posting on the forum...full stop..
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