Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - by Trevor Marriott 1 hour and 22 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - by harry 2 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - by Abby Normal 4 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - by harry 9 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - by caz 16 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - by caz 17 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel? - (39 posts)
General Police Discussion: City of London Precincts and Divisions involved in the Investigation - (1 posts)
General Discussion: Mary Kelly Jack the Ripper celebrity ghost box session interview - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #81  
Old 11-13-2015, 02:12 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
You mean, seen to Tom Bowyer finding the body, i presume... since it's evident his plan worked.
Bowyer trying to collect rent is no evidence for the killer having contacted him. So we are just speculating now. My point is that he could have contacted anybody to make sure the victim was found. He could even have contacted the police.

But history doesnīt work in the way of "could have". It is built on relations between sources. And we now that the sources say that Boywer was sent by McCarthy to collect rent. Thatīs all we know.

So I would prefer not to speculate even if it can be useful for trying different interpretations and perspectives on old sources and on earlier history.

Regards Pierre
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 11-13-2015, 03:00 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,826
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Heres the thing Jon, having information dangerous to other people is also a reason for a "contract" as you put it.. to be placed upon your head. I think that its within the realm of possibility that Kate told the man or men that bought her drinks what she intended to do to get the reward, maybe even shared names, that got back to the person or people who would be most adversely affected by her disclosure, and a follow up meeting planned with Kate that afternoon while drinking ended up being her last.

I don't think that the killer sought her because she called herself by a version of Mary Kelly that afternoon, just because she was a risk that needed mitigating. I think the choice of aliases shows us that she knew Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street, maybe through Irish friends she made while with Conway. I believe its possible that Kate inadvertently had a hand in Marys death...because the party responsible for Kates murder discovered a real Mary Kelly on Dorset St, after Kates murder, and they might have assumed the women had shared information.

Kates murder lacked the skill and knowledge that previous murders revealed, and Marys lacked the focus, something you might expect if someone was attempting to replicate acts they had only read about, and really didn't understand.

Cheers
wow. that's quite an imagination you got there Michael. But I guess its OK since we are as you said in another thread just playing "parlor games" and not in an "investigation."

Because that is some of the wildest speculation Ive ever seen on this site.

Quote:
that got back to the person or people who would be most adversely affected by her disclosure, and a follow up meeting planned with Kate that afternoon while drinking ended up being her last.
Who were these men, and what information could she possibly have that would have caused them to silence her?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 11-13-2015, 03:19 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,368
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post

wow. that's quite an imagination you got there Michael. But I guess its OK since we are as you said in another thread just playing "parlor games" and not in an "investigation." Because that is some of the wildest speculation Ive ever seen on this site.


Who were these men, and what information could she possibly have that would have caused them to silence her?
Based on the above Abby it seems as if you've never heard about a witness claiming that Kate told her she intended to claim the reward offered for information on the killer at large, because if you had then you might also wonder whether the party she intended to point to caught wind of it and decided to act first.

Kate was hanging with Irish self rule folks since her Conway days, Irish self rule folks were extremely topical in London at that precise point in time, and the previous year they had planned to kill the Queen. 1888 was the year they planned to kill Balfour. In the big scheme of things in 1888 murders of unfortunates was comparatively small potatoes when compared with talk of revolution and political assassinations. Interesting isn't it that virtually all the senior Policemen involved with Espionage and National Security were assigned to run these cases.

Any one of the Canonicals might have known terrorists about town, but speculating that Kate might have known Fenians (by whatever name) isn't really stepping outside any boxes. And speculating that Fenians were willing and capable of carrying out terrorist activities isn't really speculating at all.

That Fall it seems terrorists were a much greater threat to everyone than an alledged unfortunate serial killer was.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 11-13-2015, 03:28 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
*
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
1888 was the year they planned to kill Balfour.
Are you sure it wasn't 1887? As revealed by a cutting about Balfour's forthcoming appearance in Birmingham from the Daily News of 12 October 1887, found in the possession of one of the Jubilee plotters.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 11-13-2015, 04:20 PM
DJA DJA is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Some Australian Mountain Range.
Posts: 1,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I think that its within the realm of possibility that Kate told the man or men that bought her drinks what she intended to do to get the reward, maybe even shared names, that got back to the person or people who would be most adversely affected by her disclosure, and a follow up meeting planned with Kate that afternoon while drinking ended up being her last.

I think the choice of aliases shows us that she knew Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street.
The upstairs Bull Inn gained a reputation as a police bar in the short time it was reopened.

Abberline's retirement party was held down the street.
Same Publican.
John McCarthy and son attended.

Nothing. GSG.
__________________
My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 11-13-2015, 04:20 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,826
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Based on the above Abby it seems as if you've never heard about a witness claiming that Kate told her she intended to claim the reward offered for information on the killer at large, because if you had then you might also wonder whether the party she intended to point to caught wind of it and decided to act first.

Kate was hanging with Irish self rule folks since her Conway days, Irish self rule folks were extremely topical in London at that precise point in time, and the previous year they had planned to kill the Queen. 1888 was the year they planned to kill Balfour. In the big scheme of things in 1888 murders of unfortunates was comparatively small potatoes when compared with talk of revolution and political assassinations. Interesting isn't it that virtually all the senior Policemen involved with Espionage and National Security were assigned to run these cases.

Any one of the Canonicals might have known terrorists about town, but speculating that Kate might have known Fenians (by whatever name) isn't really stepping outside any boxes. And speculating that Fenians were willing and capable of carrying out terrorist activities isn't really speculating at all.

That Fall it seems terrorists were a much greater threat to everyone than an alledged unfortunate serial killer was.
So Fenian terrorists were killing the women because the women knew of there terrorist plots and were going to out them? Is that what your saying?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 11-13-2015, 06:27 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Kilttown, Scotland
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Bowyer trying to collect rent is no evidence...

So I would prefer not to speculate even if it can be useful for trying different interpretations and perspectives on old sources and on earlier history.

Regards Pierre

I have framed a question: how does getting your heart broken by a prostitute and having an opium addiction 'all the sudden' make you Batman?

I was speculating on something that you posted, eh, elsewhere - how the Mary Jane murder was his, eh, proudest(?) murder. It alludes to a thought that everything happened as planned, an idea of a perfect execution.

If that is the case, then all his plan came together, to include:

The discovery of Mary Janes's body by Tom Bowyer

Which leaves 3 logics:
1. Jack the Ripper needed her body found, but he was leaving that certainty up to chance.
2. Someone else was supposed to find the body, and Tom Bowyer is just some historical coincidence (ie. "Forest Gump","Harry Flashman") in the wrong place at the right time.
3. Jack the Ripper plans for Tom Bowyer to find her body.
__________________
there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 11-13-2015, 06:52 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,663
Default

Hello Michael,

I am so confused here. Are we supposed to stick to the evidence or are we allowed to speculate? Which is it? I am getting mixed signals from you.

c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 11-13-2015, 07:39 PM
DJA DJA is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Some Australian Mountain Range.
Posts: 1,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post

Kate was hanging with Irish self rule folks since her Conway days, Irish self rule folks were extremely topical in London at that precise point in time, and the previous year they had planned to kill the Queen. 1888 was the year they planned to kill Balfour. In the big scheme of things in 1888 murders of unfortunates was comparatively small potatoes when compared with talk of revolution and political assassinations. Interesting isn't it that virtually all the senior Policemen involved with Espionage and National Security were assigned to run these cases.

That Fall it seems terrorists were a much greater threat to everyone than an alledged unfortunate serial killer was.
Don't know where you got Kate's links to Irish self rule folks.

If Jack the Ripper was caught,there would have been a stink up through the police,the politicians and right up to the Queen.
Especially as the SOS was her appointment.

The Fenians would have taken advantage of that situation,for sure....for sure.
__________________
My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 11-13-2015, 08:35 PM
DJA DJA is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Some Australian Mountain Range.
Posts: 1,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I have work to do so that's why. I'll get back to this thread.
Found some more buttons and another sock
__________________
My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.