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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #81  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:15 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
If you follow the Mylett case, where the victim was thought to have been strangled by use of a cord. Dr. Brownfield offered a reason for the throats being cut in previous cases.
http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

".....if the other victims had been first strangled would there not be postmortem indications?" - "If he cut the throat along the line of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation." "
Hi Wickerman,

I donīt know what to make of this (excerpt from the article in your reference):


"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that


THE TONGUE PROTRUDED
between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation."

Is this something I can belive in?

Pierre
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  #82  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:15 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Deleted.

Last edited by Fisherman : 07-13-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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  #83  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
The protruding tongues certainly imply potential strangulation, but not definite. Steve (Elmarna) previously asked whether the decapitation could have hidden the cuts, the couple I've looked at would again be a possibility (although until each ripper/ripper-type cut and each torso decapitation is assessed I'm not willing to go further, sorry).

I do remember a previous discussion about the use of a garrotte which I suggest could potentially occlude the carotid arteries to render the victim unconscious as the first element of the killers attack.

Regards

Paul
I see. Potential strangulation. Thank you, Paul.

Pierre
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  #84  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:18 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Before this terrible thread turns into Fishermanīs Torso Thread and before establishing facts on no knowledge at all about two cuts we need research on the whole issue. I have never been particularly interested in the dimension of the signature looking at the cuts and wounds, since I do not understand them much. I am no physician.

But I can see that a lot in this thread already must be speculation.


So there are questions that need to be answered, for example:

Was historical murders where there were throat cutting with two cuts common or unusual?

The types of cuts described in the sources - are these types of cuts to be found in many other newspaper sources describing throat cuts in murders?

Are their other types of cuts in descriptions over some relevant time?


If so, how do these descriptions differ?

And what knowledge can be gained from them?


So, what one must do is find a set of sources, analyze them and answer these questions.

The most suitable researcher for such a task, not naming anyone, is someone with some medical knowledge.

Pierre
Pierre

Here's a link to a nine year Indian series of all medicolegal autopsies which I think demonstrates:

A. How rare throat cut murder is
B. How it is uncommon for all deep structures to be involved

NB the Ripper murders would cut the larynx below the tracheal cartilage

http://www.ejmanager.com/mnstemps/11...1425267294.pdf

Paul
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  #85  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:49 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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[quote=Pierre;421822]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post

Michael wrote:



Steve, you said:



Is that not always an observation in throat cuts?

Not always. To cut all the vessels one does not need to use enough force to cut into the bone.

Steve
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  #86  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:52 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=Elamarna;421842]
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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post


Not always. To cut all the vessels one does not need to use enough force to cut into the bone.

Steve
OK, I thought perhaps you spoke about force generally. I see what you mean.

Pierre
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  #87  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:53 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
Pierre

Here's a link to a nine year Indian series of all medicolegal autopsies which I think demonstrates:

A. How rare throat cut murder is
B. How it is uncommon for all deep structures to be involved

NB the Ripper murders would cut the larynx below the tracheal cartilage

http://www.ejmanager.com/mnstemps/11...1425267294.pdf

Paul
Thanks Paul!

But I see now that there is just a sample of 32 homicidal injurys. That sample is too small to generalize from (statistically).

Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 07-13-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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  #88  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:54 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Seemingly "botched" cuts - how common where they in cases like this (throat cut, murder, Victorian times)?

Pierre
Hi Pierre
No idea and doubt there is much data on it.

It's just an idea based on Mackenzie where one of the cuts appears to be a failure and Nichols where the smaller of the two cuts could be similar. No data to support just a suggestion I made.

Steve
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  #89  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:59 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Pierre
No idea and doubt there is much data on it.

It's just an idea based on Mackenzie where one of the cuts appears to be a failure and Nichols where the smaller of the two cuts could be similar. No data to support just a suggestion I made.

Steve
Steve,

I could easily say that the cuts you speak about were "a failure". But I donīt like thinking that way so I do not say it.

I prefer data.

Cheers, Pierre
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  #90  
Old 07-13-2017, 02:18 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Thanks Paul!

But I see now that there is just a sample of 32 homicidal injurys. That sample is too small to generalize from (statistically).

Pierre
This though is a massive sample of medicolegal autopsies, yet throat cut homicide is incredibly rare. There are other series which compare suicidal (rare), accidental (very rare) and homicidal, neck sharp wounds. The deeper wounds are near inevitably homicidal, but still a mere fraction of the total. Unfortunately I can only access the abstracts and a summary on forensicmed.

One needs to remember the sternocleidomastoid muscles are a couple of cm thick and although the larynx is fairly superficial, the carotid artery and jugular vein are deep to the muscle in a normal neck position

Paul
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