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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #311  
Old 09-28-2018, 04:47 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Hello Michael,

And what do you think would have happened to the club and its members if the police determined that they had deliberately lied to the police in a murder investigation?

c.d.
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  #312  
Old 09-29-2018, 02:32 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Hello Michael,

And what do you think would have happened to the club and its members if the police determined that they had deliberately lied to the police in a murder investigation?

c.d.
They would have been under close scrutiny and they, and their associates would be investigated. Some charges might be laid.

What I am talking about is what would happen if the police suspected that they were lying to conceal their culpability. I think that the club would have closed either voluntarily or otherwise, I think that the sentiments towards immigrant Jews in the area would worsen , if that was even possible..and I think Louis would lose his job, and Mrs D, and Eagle would lose a paying venue for his speeches. Wess might be pressured into shutting down or relocating.

In the heat of the moment, unsure of what exactly happened to that point, the people most closely associated with the club agreed what should be said to the police. To minimize any suggestion that any member or person onsite at the time might be guilty of murder.

Israel Schwartz does that better than anyone, but he did have all day to prepare his story.
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  #313  
Old 09-29-2018, 06:57 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default Why didn't they mutilate Stride if they want to throw suspicion on JtR?

Did those conspirators in the club run off to Mitre Sq. to make sure they turned it into a double event?

Let me guess, they were disturbed from mutilating Stride because someone was coming?

... just like JtR was right?
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  #314  
Old 09-30-2018, 10:13 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Did those conspirators in the club run off to Mitre Sq. to make sure they turned it into a double event?

Let me guess, they were disturbed from mutilating Stride because someone was coming?

... just like JtR was right?
I originally had that name here but I think my posts were at least readable. I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, but so you stay on page, Liz was obviously not killed by a pm mutilator, Kate was, and the proof that the club members were trying to foist Liz's murder on JTR is very clear in their use of the phrase..."another murder has been committed".

I find it absolutely fascinating that people seem so adverse to the notion that a club with a bad reputation would lie, or conspire, about the facts concerning a dead woman on their property. People lie everyday, even about small insignificant things. Would someone lie to protect their livelihood? Or their social club? Of course they would. Its nonsense to treat that idea without respect.
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  #315  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:45 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Liz was obviously not killed by a pm mutilator, Kate was, and the proof that the club members were trying to foist Liz's murder on JTR is very clear in their use of the phrase..."another murder has been committed".

I find it absolutely fascinating that people seem so adverse to the notion that a club with a bad reputation would lie, or conspire, about the facts concerning a dead woman on their property.
It's not being adverse to it, it's the fact there is no evidence for it and there is evidence contradicting it. Especially given we know they were investigated. There is no reason they were in on it any more than anyone else living, working, clubbing in close proximity to any Whitechapel murder.

The point is that if the club were in on a conspiracy to frame JtR for the murder then why not mutilate Stride? It really is that simple.

Why do they need to make the discovery also?

Louis Diemschutz, the steward of the Workers' Club, claims to have found her body and disturbed the killer who he thought could be still in the yard.

What sort of conspiracy is that?

Also, why aren't they all describing JtR as a non-Jew doing the murder?

Why leave it so open-ended as to the blame possibly falling on them?

You do realize it is the double event that suddenly changed the complexion of Stride's murder.

How did they organize a double-event?

Just got lucky?

If you want them to be in a conspiracy you actually need to explain a logical conspiracy that explains all the facts. Not just that someone in the club killed her and others helped cover it up. The facts are much more than that.
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Last edited by Batman : 09-30-2018 at 11:49 AM.
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  #316  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:56 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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But Jon, where does the soil come from?
Diemschitz had come from Crystal Palace and the cart was kept in George Yard, Cable Street.
The roads between Crystal Palace and Berner St. are all paved or cobbled.
George Yard was cobbled just like Dutfields Yard.
Where does the cart wheel pick up wet soil?
Good question, Jon
None the less, Stride was plastered in mud.

Quote:
Be my guest Jon, pick a newspaper that suits your theory - attaboy!
But you`ll note, I reference both sources ;-)
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  #317  
Old 10-01-2018, 03:00 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Hi Abby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
One thing I have little doubt is that BS man, AKA peaked cap to me, was strides killer and JTR.
My gut feeling is that BS Man killed Stride, and therefore, could be JTR

Quote:
I have a lot of little scenarios on how the specifics of the BS man/stride murder may have went down.

the one I favor:
BS man is the man that Marshall, schwartz and probably the PC saw with stride. perhaps Best too, but just got the hat completely wrong.
Yes, it does look like Marshall`s Man and BS Man are the same man.
I think so.
But I think PC Smith`s Man could be Brown`s Man (long coat), and Best`s Man is not BS Man

Quote:
BS man meets stride somewhere, perhaps the pub, and is trying to finagle her to a secluded spot. Shes not going-I think because she was not actively soliciting, maybe wary of the ripper murders-she just broken up and seems to me to be out having a good time maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfreind/sugar daddy.
Yes, it does seem like Stride is making her date wait !!

Quote:
I think more than likely, schwartz saw the attack/beginning of the attack, just didnt specifically see him cut her throat.

Her hand goes to her throat, BS man skidaddles, stride stumbles into the yard toward the voices and perceived help but expires in the yard.
I can`t agree with Stride getting her throat cut anywhere but where she was lying against the wall.
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  #318  
Old 10-01-2018, 06:39 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Hi Abby



My gut feeling is that BS Man killed Stride, and therefore, could be JTR



Yes, it does look like Marshall`s Man and BS Man are the same man.
I think so.
But I think PC Smith`s Man could be Brown`s Man (long coat), and Best`s Man is not BS Man



Yes, it does seem like Stride is making her date wait !!



I can`t agree with Stride getting her throat cut anywhere but where she was lying against the wall.
thanks Jon

now that I see your scenario more clearly-I have no problem with it.
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  #319  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:27 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Good question, Jon
None the less, Stride was plastered in mud.
Which is why I suggested that 'mud' was a euphemism for horse dung.
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