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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #4491  
Old 05-01-2018, 09:58 AM
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caz -- Certain chemicals leach out over time, due to oxygen, sunlight, etc. You are assuming (wrongly) that because Diamine ink had a certain percentage of chloroacetamide in its liquid state, that, 2 or 3 years later, after it had dried out and was exposed to air and sunlight, that it would still have the same percentage of chloroacetamide. Not true. Experiments would need to be conducted to determine the percentage that one would be expected to find. Talk to a chemist.
Hello rj,

A recap is in order...

If you are saying no such experiments have been conducted, do you not find this quite incomprehensible, considering Warren believed the diary was written in pre-1992 Diamine Black Manuscript ink bought by Mike Barrett, and he was given the stuff by Voller in 1995 to experiment with? Why did he only make a visual examination to see how long it took to show signs of bronzing on the page? How would that prove anything unless he could show that Diamine bronzed at the same rate as the diary ink and stopped at the point when its appearance was 'entirely consistent' with it?

Warren found signs in 'as little as 2 or 3 years', but what is that supposed to mean? He either observed signs after 2 years or he didn’t. How much bronzing was evident after 2 years? How much after 3? How long before it was consistent with what Voller had described in October 1995, three and a half years after the diary emerged? Did the Diamine carry on bronzing after 3 years? Do you have the answers, rj? Does anyone?

If Warren didn't send one of his writing samples to AFI after, say, 2 or 3 years, to conduct exactly the experiment you say we would need, to determine the percentage of chloroacetamide remaining in dry Diamine ink dots on paper [just as they claimed to do in October 1994 with dry diary ink dots on paper], why not? Wasn’t it a golden opportunity to ask AFI to compare like with like and report back that yes, we can confirm that 6.5 parts per million in the diary ink is 'entirely consistent' with it being Diamine?

There are only two possible conclusions anyone could reach if no such report has ever been made available. Either Warren failed to take this opportunity, or he wasn't happy with the result.

Love,

Caz
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  #4492  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:02 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Let me try and give a clear example of what I am talking about.

Nick Warren was provided with a sample of recreated Diamine Ink directly by Alec Voller in January 1995, and he wrote a test example with that ink on a document dated 26 January 1995. This compares with Robert Smith's example written (with what was supposed to be a duplicate bottle of Diamine Ink provided in Jan 1995 by Voller) more than 18 years later, on 19 September 2012, after the bottle went missing, only to be found in an attic in December 2011.

To my eyes - and I confirm that I have not used any effects on this image - the ink would best be described as dark grey (and not dissimilar to the ink in the Diary). It certainly seems to bear no relation to the example written by Robert Smith in 2012 and reproduced in his 2017 book. I'm not sure how one explains this discrepancy bearing in mind it is supposed to be exactly the same ink.
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  #4493  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:02 AM
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Shirley's book gives the ingredients of liquid Diamine ink and their percentages, which, excluding the 92.08% water, add up to 7.92%, with chloroacetamide coming in at 0.26%, which is the equivalent of 0.02%, or 200 parts per million [is that right?] with the water taken out. AFI's figure was 6.5 parts per million.
I feel rather embarrassed about the above. I was waiting for someone to pick up my mistake with the sums so I could say in my best Captain Mainwaring voice: "I wondered who'd be the first one to spot that".

Alas, it seems that only two people and my cat are reading this thread, or they are all worse than me at maths. And my fellow posters had a reason on this occasion not to comment on my failings.

You see, I got it totally arse about face. Looking at the percentages again, in fresh liquid Diamine, I realised that when the 92.08% water has evaporated, the percentage of chloroacetamide left with the remaining ingredients on the paper will have increased accordingly, not decreased.

Recalculating then, the 0.26% will be 3.28% of the ink minus all the water, or 32,800 parts per million, although, as rj observed, 'certain chemicals leach out over time, due to oxygen, sunlight, etc', so that just 2 or 3 years later, the 32,800 parts per million of chloroacetamide could have reduced by 32,793.5 parts per million in the dry ink residue, to just 6.5 parts per million.

I honestly have no idea whether this is a reasonable possibility or not, because it seems that Nick Warren had the best chance to find out back in the late 1990s, but didn't, or chose not to publish the findings.

Love,

Caz
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  #4494  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:08 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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"pre-1992 Diamine Black Manuscript Ink" (something of possible concern if the forger purchased the ink in 1992)
It will be noted that I used the expression "possible concern".

My understanding is that the Bluecoat art shop sold its last remaining pre-1992 bottle of Diamine Ink in July 1993 (although I haven't seen express confirmation that it hadn't ordered any 1992 ink prior to this).

But to say that disposes of the matter would be wrong because we cannot simply trust Mike Barrett to be telling us the truth as to the purchase of the ink. He might have purchased Diamine Ink from another shop entirely or someone else might have purchased it on his behalf, or given it to him, that person being someone he didn't want to name in his affidavit.

More to the point is what the formula of the ink was in 1992, and, of course, whether this new formula was commercially available in March 1992, and those questions I have not seen answered.
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  #4495  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Let me try and give a clear example of what I am talking about.

Nick Warren was provided with a sample of recreated Diamine Ink directly by Alec Voller in January 1995, and he wrote a test example with that ink on a document dated 26 January 1995. This compares with Robert Smith's example written (with what was supposed to be a duplicate bottle of Diamine Ink provided in Jan 1995 by Voller) more than 18 years later, on 19 September 2012, after the bottle went missing, only to be found in an attic in December 2011.

To my eyes - and I confirm that I have not used any effects on this image - the ink would best be described as dark grey (and not dissimilar to the ink in the Diary). It certainly seems to bear no relation to the example written by Robert Smith in 2012 and reproduced in his 2017 book. I'm not sure how one explains this discrepancy bearing in mind it is supposed to be exactly the same ink.
Any idea when this was photographed, David? Was it in 1995 just after Warren wrote it? 1997, when he observed the first signs of bronzing? 1998 when the writing reached 3 years of age? Any advance on 3 years?

Any idea at all?

How many pictures did he take of this writing and at what intervals?

It was Warren's contention that his Diamine ink changed in appearance after application, and that the diary ink changed too, between its first and subsequent outings for tests. So it's surely crucial to know how long after January 1995 the above image was snapped, and what the writing looks like today, otherwise there is no way for anyone to judge and make sensible comparisons with the diary.

Love,

Caz
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  #4496  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:21 AM
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It certainly sounds like the ink bronzed sometime between 1992 and 1995, which would match the observations made by Nick Warren using the ink that Voller had sent him to "play around with."
Again, it's a great pity that Warren "played around with" his Diamine, if he didn't think to send a writing sample to AFI when it had been on the paper for 2 or 3 years, to ascertain if the level of chloroacetamide was comparable to what they found in the diary ink in 1994, two and a half years after the diary was supposedly written.

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Voller's suggestion that the ink was old was evidently based on its washed-out and unevenly faded appearance. An amateur forger like Barrett might have simply added water to the ink in order to give it a faded look.
But Voller said: "You see dilution would simply not produce this sort of effect".

And I don't recall Mike Barrett ever saying he "simply added water" to the ink to give it a faded look that would completely fool an ink chemist. He did say he simply added sugar, to do something or other to the molecules.

But then, Mike was supposedly an expert in pretending to be clueless; an expert in diluting Diamine ink to produce an effect which Diamine's ink chemist would say dilution would "simply not produce"; and an expert in how to artificially age one's forgery, immediately after completion, over a wet weekend using a sunlamp, to simulate a century's worth of natural fading, while avoiding the 'savage bleaching effect on the paper', which Voller also said would result from such harsh exposure to U.V. radiation.

And Anne supposedly had the rare talent of being able to completely disguise all aspects of her normal handwriting over 63 pages.

Good luck with proving it. You'll need it.

Love,

Caz
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Last edited by caz : 05-01-2018 at 10:23 AM.
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  #4497  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:25 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Unless it is being argued that the ink magically changes colour, what difference does it make to my point (about the ink being grey not blue) when the photograph was taken?
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  #4498  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:25 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Here's another question. What is the rate of evaporation of water from ink on a page?
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  #4499  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:31 AM
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When I posted those quotes from Voller's correspondence I deliberately made no comment. His words speak for themselves.
They might have, if we could be sure David had not been selective but had quoted all Voller's words, without making any transcription errors in the process.

Quote:
Voller, in my opinion, was quite wrong to have ever factored in Mike Barrett's stupidity in the first place when assessing the diary (regardless of whether Barrett is stupid or not) because he should have assumed that he could be dealing with a forger who would take any humanly possible steps to make the Diary look old. It's a classic mistake made by experts to underestimate the lengths a determined forger can go to, and the knowledge that is available outside of the scientific community, which leads them to conclude that a forged document is genuine.
I don't know that Voller ever concluded the diary was 'genuine', but would it not be equally wrong for anyone, expert or not, to factor in Mike Barrett's drunken forgery claims, when assessing the diary, and to assume they are dealing with a 'determined forger', and a recent one at that, just because there has been a 'confession'? It's a classic mistake to judge the diary by any of Mike Barrett's claims for it, or to judge Mike Barrett's abilities by the diary, and try to conclude anything meaningful about his actual involvement in, or knowledge of its creation.

But I'm glad to see that David is not relying on Mike knowing anything much at all about it, but imagines there may have been some shady characters in the background, doing Mike's bidding, even purchasing the ink and what not for him, and giving him control of the promoting and publishing side. At least it keeps all the forgery options wide open [aside from the actual creation taking place over those 11 days between April 1st and 12th 1992] and the Barrett hoax conspiracy theories alive.

Quote:
Mind you, why Voller was told that Barrett was stupid, and who told him, is quite another question. If it was someone involved with researching the diary this should never have happened because it clearly could, and this case did, lead Voller to give an incomplete answer in the first instance.
Do we now have Voller's 'complete' answer then? Or just what David selectively quoted from it?

Love,

Caz
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:34 AM
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"Ink chemists determine the age of ink by the rate of extraction from the paper and the percentage of extraction. They measure how fast the ink can be chemically removed from the paper and how easily it is remove. Ink dries chemically in approximately three and one-half years according to Erich Speckin. By using the rate of extraction, ink chemists can determine the age of the application of the ink within six months. After the ink has completely dried, the chemist can only state that the ink is over three and one-half years old."--Attorney's Guide to Document Examination by Katerine Koppenhaver (2002)
This is just the point I made recently myself, rj. If David wants to argue that ink met paper in early April 1992, then why did Dr. Baxendale fail to determine this with his 'solubility' test, instead of fannying about getting the history of synthetic dyes wrong, failing to find the iron in the ink and not concluding that it had been applied to the paper "within the last six months"? I can see only two possibilities here: Baxendale wasn't as good as some wish to claim; or ink didn't meet paper within those six months, which would mean saying a fond farewell to our little red diary [sniff].

Love,

Caz
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