Is Mary Jane's real name Mary Jane?

[Debra A]

We don't know Mary Jane Kelly's age though, do we? If she was 28 years old in 1888 (not beyond the realms of possibility, surely) and was born to a Roman Catholic family in Limerick in 1860 her birth may be hidden in the myriad Catholic records that haven't been transcribed yet, as Debra has said.

It doesn't say much for the woman's veracity that practically everything she told Joe Barnett and her friends about her previous life has proven to be either untrue or untraceable. She is certainly the mystery woman of the C-5!

I agree with your first paragraph, Rosella. The sooner the Catholic records are digitised the sooner we will be able to do a more exhaustive search. although there are no Irish census records to follow up anyone after their birth.

Mary being involved with Joseph Fleming and Morganstone were all true so her recent history, as told to Barnett, checked out. Her birth and early life in Ireland is untraceable because the census records just don't exist anymore. She may have come to Wales with her family after 1871 so missed the 1871 Wales census so those parts could be true but impossible to prove.

[MayBea]

As you pointed out, Debra, the name Mary Jane seems to have been relatively popular in Ireland compared to anywhere else.

That could explain how she got her name if it was her birth name.

But I still think she could have been named after her parents, both of them.

I'll have to do a survey on Ancestry to see if it's at all common to name someone Jane after a father John.

[Disco Stu]

Just a quick post, as no one's mentioned it here yet. The Catholic Parish registers are finally online. They're not indexed yet, so it's mind-numbing-scrolling through microfilm, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/genealogy/Genealogical-treasure-trove-as-Catholic-parish-register-published-online.html

Also, my greatx3 gran was a Mary Jane, born in 1859 and Catholic. Just to add to the statistical base.

[Prosector]

The name Kelly was synonymous with prostitute in late Victorian Britain on account of the large number of Irish girls forced into the trade by the successive famines in Ireland. Catherine Eddowes used the alias Mary Anne Kelly when she was arrested earlier on the night of her murder. It would have been a natural choice for any prostitute wishing to disguise her real identity at the time and it is why I believe that until now it has misled so many people, including the police, who have tried to identify the last victim.

Four weeks from today sees the publication of my book which, as the title 'The Real Mary Kelly' suggests, will reveal the person I believe to be MJK (and also JTR). As you will discover, her real name was nothing like Mary Jane Kelly and she was not even Irish.

Sorry not to be able to say any more for the moment.

Prosector

[MayBea]

I've completed my random, non-scientific survey on Ancestry to see if the idea of an Irish family naming their daughter Mary Jane because the parents were Mary and John.

I found the odds in 1861 of an Irish father named John married to a Mary is twice as likely to have a daughter named Mary Jane than an Irish father of any other name married to a Mary. It's even twice as high as a James/Mary combination.

Statistically speaking, the idea has some validity, but is not necessarily valid. There are probably so many Marys in Ireland, they had to come up with variations such as Mary Ann and Mary Jane. Still the odds she was named Mary, if that's her name, because she was named after her mother and/or a grandmother are very high.

Good luck with your book, Prosecutor. Remember though that an unsolved mystery will probably sell more than a "case-closed", everything else being equal.

[Debra A]

The name Kelly was synonymous with prostitute in late Victorian Britain on account of the large number of Irish girls forced into the trade by the successive famines in Ireland. Catherine Eddowes used the alias Mary Anne Kelly when she was arrested earlier on the night of her murder. It would have been a natural choice for any prostitute wishing to disguise her real identity at the time and it is why I believe that until now it has misled so many people, including the police, who have tried to identify the last victim.

Four weeks from today sees the publication of my book which, as the title 'The Real Mary Kelly' suggests, will reveal the person I believe to be MJK (and also JTR). As you will discover, her real name was nothing like Mary Jane Kelly and she was not even Irish.

Sorry not to be able to say any more for the moment.

Prosector

I noticed her identity is revealed on Ancestry

[Prosector]

I agree with your reasoning and it is not surprising since in Celtic languages including, both Welsh and Irish, John and Jane are the male and female equivalents of the same name. However, if she was only using the name Mary Jane Kelly as an alias it doesn't help much.

The only thing that will positively prove the identity of MJK is DNA evidence (and rather better than the Kosminski/Eddowes so-called evidence which has now been totally discredited). The Ministry of Justice has given me permission to exhume Mary Jane but unfortunately, despite the headstone in Leytonstone Catholic Cemetery, the exact whereabouts of her grave is not known. That being the case I am sure that there will be adequate room for doubt for many years to come.

Prosector (not Prosecutor by the way - a Prosector is someone who dissects bodies and teaches anatomy)

[DJA]

a Prosector is someone who dissects bodies and teaches anatomy

I genuinely believe Jack the Ripper actually did the same.

As you know, many of our auto immune diseases are caused by "strep".

Catherine Eddowes/Conway was possibly a patient for over 20 years.

I believe Mary Kelly had a religious connection to Jack the Ripper stretching back two or three years earlier.
Suspect she was born locally,several years before most surmise.

Looking forward to an interesting read.

All the Best!

[MayBea]

Catherine Eddowes used the alias Mary Anne Kelly when she was arrested earlier on the night of her murder. It would have been a natural choice for any prostitute wishing to disguise her real identity ....

It wouldn't be such a natural choice for someone we know used the assumed alias Marie Jeanette. Why not a French last name or a more lyrical Irish one? Sullivan, perhaps?

As for Catherine, we know she didn't pick the name Kelly out of a hat. It was her most recent boyfriend's name.

We also know Catherine and Mary Kelly were linked through the Thrawl Street Mission. The London City Missionary knew them both.

[Silverpaw]

So, just to clarify Prosector, there is no chance of an exhumation?

[Prosector]

I don't think there's any chance of an exhumation even though the Ministry of Justice has given me permission to do so based on its belief that I have provided sufficient evidence to be allowed to do so. It took them more than 6 months to consider my application but sadly it would apparently mean excavating a large part of the cemetery and there are so many bodies that there would be little chance of finding the right one even if any remains still existed.

As for the choice of name, I don't think that Eddowes chose the alias Kelly because of her paramour - that would be counter-intuitive. If she wished to link herself to him surely she would have called herself Catherine Kelly? The choice of Mary Anne suggests that she was deliberately giving a false name and Mary Anne/Jane Kelly was the most likely choice, As I have said, the name Kelly was synonymous with prostitute at the time and would give the police absolutely nothing to go on if they chose to investigate further which was most unlikely.

Nor do I believe that our MJK had any verifiable connection with the Thrawl Street Mission or the Providence Row Night Refuge. The name, real or as an alias, was so common in the East End at the time that there is nothing concrete to link the body in Miller's Court to any of the various waifs and strays that were put forward later as being the victim.

Prosector

[MrBarnett]

Hi Prosector,

I'm looking forward to reading your book. I hope your genealogical research is not as sloppy as your topographichal research. Is the eastern side of Breezers Hill still pretty much as it was in 1888? Was the Ratcliffe Highway in Wapping? Did it contain opium dens? And are these bricks really red?



MrB

[MayBea]

Nor do I believe that our MJK had any verifiable connection with the Thrawl Street Mission or the Providence Row Night Refuge.

I don't know about the Providence Row but I do know about the Mission on Thrawl Street.

The London City Missionary from the press reports, who said he knew Kelly and rescued one of her friends, I've identified as Charles Pateman. His name was on the marriage certificate I came up with during my MJK research. Both married parties gave their addresses as Thrawl Street.

Charles Pateman, London City Mission Magazine, November 1, 1888

WEEK-EVENING MEETINGS

These meetings have been carried on for seven years in the Mission Hall, Thrawl Street. Through the kindness of my local superintendent, I have the use of the hall one night a week.

[Silverpaw]

I don't think there's any chance of an exhumation even though the Ministry of Justice has given me permission to do so based on its belief that I have provided sufficient evidence to be allowed to do so. It took them more than 6 months to consider my application but sadly it would apparently mean excavating a large part of the cemetery and there are so many bodies that there would be little chance of finding the right one even if any remains still existed.

As for the choice of name, I don't think that Eddowes chose the alias Kelly because of her paramour - that would be counter-intuitive. If she wished to link herself to him surely she would have called herself Catherine Kelly? The choice of Mary Anne suggests that she was deliberately giving a false name and Mary Anne/Jane Kelly was the most likely choice, As I have said, the name Kelly was synonymous with prostitute at the time and would give the police absolutely nothing to go on if they chose to investigate further which was most unlikely.

Nor do I believe that our MJK had any verifiable connection with the Thrawl Street Mission or the Providence Row Night Refuge. The name, real or as an alias, was so common in the East End at the time that there is nothing concrete to link the body in Miller's Court to any of the various waifs and strays that were put forward later as being the victim.

Prosector

Prosector - I understand that there's some confusion over the exact location of Kelly's grave despite the plot number being known but would that really necessitate excavating a "large part" of the cemetery? According to press reports her coffin was inscribed but I don't know if that was with a metal plate or just engraved. As for remains, surely it would still be possible to extract DNA? What about Richard III! I've been to the cemetery myself, the staff there are very obliging with the ledgers but I never thought to ask if they have plans of the plot layout - do they exist?

[Robert]

If any remains still exist, one would have to take DNA samples from each bone set and compare it with samples from the descendants of her putative family. There might be a shortcut if notched bones were found - I can't believe JTR's knife didn't leave traces. There was also a brass plate, apparently :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-funeralmjk.html