Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by Joshua Rogan 2 hours ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by Sam Flynn 3 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - by c.d. 3 hours ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by Sam Flynn 3 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Herlock Sholmes 4 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (18 posts)
Torso Killings: torso maps - (12 posts)
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - (5 posts)
General Discussion: Mystery photographs found in car-boot sale box - (3 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - (2 posts)
Witnesses: Sarah and Maurice Lewis - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-14-2018, 08:02 AM
Jmorty Jmorty is offline
Cadet
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1
Default Smith and Tabram

First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

Thanks,
Jmorty

Last edited by Jmorty : 03-14-2018 at 08:06 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-14-2018, 12:14 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorty View Post
First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

Thanks,
Jmorty
Hi Jmorty
welcome to the nut house! Yes absolutely. and with Nichols we could see the evolution of a budding serial killer whos learning how to kill more quickly, quietly and efficiently.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-14-2018, 12:44 PM
GUT GUT is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: I come from a land Down Under
Posts: 7,336
Default

Welcome Jmorty.

One of the problems with this case, is that almost anything is possible.
__________________
G U T

There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-15-2018, 03:22 AM
John Malcolm John Malcolm is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cardiff, Wales
Posts: 90
Default

Very thoughtful post. I've always had strong feelings about the deaths of Emma Smith and Martha Tabram being connected to the following "canonical five".
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-15-2018, 06:39 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,359
Default

while I don't rule out emma smith, I think she is probably not a ripper victim though.

The group attack and sexual assault angle throws me off.

but I do have a canonical seven-I add tabram and McKenzie to the five.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-15-2018, 02:01 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 758
Default

Yes it does seem like he was learning !
I agree with you Abby regarding Alice Mckenzie, what do you think happened with her as the attack was not so severe was it?

Pat..............................

Last edited by Paddy : 03-15-2018 at 02:04 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-15-2018, 03:53 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Yes it does seem like he was learning !
I agree with you Abby regarding Alice Mckenzie, what do you think happened with her as the attack was not so severe was it?

Pat..............................
Hi paddy
Happy st pats day! Soon any way.

I think he was drunk and or sick and or interrupted.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-28-2018, 04:17 PM
sdreid sdreid is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: McWopetaz Metroplex, Illinois U. S. of A.
Posts: 4,957
Default

Emma was attacked 130 years ago next Tuesday-R.I.P.
__________________
This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

Stan Reid
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-28-2018, 04:59 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi paddy
Happy st pats day! Soon any way.

I think he was drunk and or sick and or interrupted.
Not sure about drunk, Abby. He had to have the where-with-all to kill and get away un-detected. I agree with the interrupted part to a certain degree. I think he knew before hand he had a small window of time to work with and tried to get as much done in that short time frame as he could. Maybe as a personal challenge or to mock the authorities. Eddowes had "doodling" done to her face similar to the "doodling" on Mckenzie's stomach. One of her wounds to the abdomen was long and deeper at the top than the bottom, so it wasn't as superficial as the others. If he took the time to rip her open, he may have been more of a mess than he wanted to be knowing the short window he was working in.

Given ample time, he could pull off a Mary Kelly type murder or as has been suggested in the past, cut off limbs and heads and dispose of them in various locations.

I am 50/50 on Tabram and Emma Smith may have been a victim of the gang spoken about. There was an arrest of a young man named Joseph Isaacs and a friend named Adler shortly before the murder of Emma Smith in early April, 1888. They were part of a gang of young men causing trouble in the ladies waiting room in the Railway Station near Whitechapel. Bishopsgate IIRC. Not sure if it's the same Joseph Isaacs but it very well could be. Same age and occupation. Adler lived in Hanbury Street.

Last edited by jerryd : 03-28-2018 at 05:10 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:25 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Not sure about drunk, Abby. He had to have the where-with-all to kill and get away un-detected. I agree with the interrupted part to a certain degree. I think he knew before hand he had a small window of time to work with and tried to get as much done in that short time frame as he could. Maybe as a personal challenge or to mock the authorities. Eddowes had "doodling" done to her face similar to the "doodling" on Mckenzie's stomach. One of her wounds to the abdomen was long and deeper at the top than the bottom, so it wasn't as superficial as the others. If he took the time to rip her open, he may have been more of a mess than he wanted to be knowing the short window he was working in.

Given ample time, he could pull off a Mary Kelly type murder or as has been suggested in the past, cut off limbs and heads and dispose of them in various locations.

I am 50/50 on Tabram and Emma Smith may have been a victim of the gang spoken about. There was an arrest of a young man named Joseph Isaacs and a friend named Adler shortly before the murder of Emma Smith in early April, 1888. They were part of a gang of young men causing trouble in the ladies waiting room in the Railway Station near Whitechapel. Bishopsgate IIRC. Not sure if it's the same Joseph Isaacs but it very well could be. Same age and occupation. Adler lived in Hanbury Street.
Hi jerry
Thanks. The thing is we know that Emma was attacked by a gang. And no knife used. Tabram we don’t know about multiple people and the only evidence is that she was with one man prior to being found murdered. But the hiked skirt, use of knife targeting the throat and abdomen/privates leads me to conclude she was probably an early ripper victim.

Add to that the attack on mill wood earlier nearby with knife to abdomen and we can see a clear logical progression of a serial killer learning and evolving as he gains practice.

Even the use of possibly two knives on tab ram, which some think might point to a multiple person attack like smith, to me actually meshes with an evolving serial killer. As in—the attack on mill wood was with a smaller knife, one which the killer previously was accustomed to carrying all the time. Next time out he also brought a larger knife, both of which he used on tab ram.

It all fits to me pretty nicely with a natural progression:

Milllwod-small knife, abdomen targeted
Tabram- small and larger knife, throat and abdomen targeted
Nichols-large knife, throat cut, abdomen targeted
The rest with organ removal and more escalation etc.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.