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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #861  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:41 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Theories, come from the evidence, not from speculation.
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  #862  
Old 07-30-2018, 03:04 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Jon,

We might assume that a streetwise petty criminal such as Isaacs would have known a good deal better than to “toff up” in the heart of Whitechapel during that period in its history. Little wonder then that you’ve failed to deliver on my request for evidence that he did so. He required neither Superman abilities nor a vacant phone box to figure such a basic reality out, and leave his fake bling at home when exploring the delights of Paternoster Row.

Common sense and a basic regard for his personal safety would have dictated where and when he played fancy dress.

No, I did not suggest that Isaacs lacked the money for the outfit. No money was required, that’s the whole point. It was so cheap and unconvincing that the fakery was easily exposed.

Contradicting your Pall Mall Gazette article are the sources attesting to crowds of people that threatened to overwhelm the coroner’s office in Shoreditch. No, I do not have my sources to hand at present, but until I locate them - which shouldn’t take too long - by all means accuse me of lying or “guessing”.

I suggest a little more imagination may be required if you’re claiming that a non-descript labourer hanging around that general vicinity for a very short period would have caused a public outcry. That’s if he was there at all, which he need not have been.

Regards,
Ben
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  #863  
Old 07-30-2018, 03:10 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Abby,

As much as RJ’s experiment was no doubt conducted with the best of intentions, it unfortunately fails as a valid comparison on two very important levels; a) it ostensibly involved the use of modern electricity as a lighting aid, which is a million miles away from the piddle-poor emitting powers of an 1888 gas lamp, and b) RJ was aware of the object’s colour before he even conducted his experiment, which does taint the latter’s validity somewhat.

Best wishes,
Ben
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  #864  
Old 07-30-2018, 03:35 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Hi Abby,

As much as RJ’s experiment was no doubt conducted with the best of intentions, it unfortunately fails as a valid comparison on two very important levels; a) it ostensibly involved the use of modern electricity as a lighting aid, which is a million miles away from the piddle-poor emitting powers of an 1888 gas lamp, and b) RJ was aware of the object’s colour before he even conducted his experiment, which does taint the latter’s validity somewhat.

Best wishes,
Ben
I was camping at the weekend and when a tent 40 yards away opened, I could see by the feeble light of their gas lantern that the occupant was wearing a red top.
Does that make me a lying publicity seeker / murderer?
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  #865  
Old 07-30-2018, 04:09 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
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Let's not forget, Astrachan passed directly under a lamp in front of Hutchinson where this red handkerchief could have been seen in his top pocket as he passed by.
At the same time as he noted the red stone on Astrakhan's watch chain.
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  #866  
Old 07-30-2018, 04:59 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Quote:
Does that make me a lying publicity seeker / murderer?
No, Joshua, but it might make you someone who hasn’t researched the subject of Victorian gas lighting in any great depth. A modern day gas lantern of the type used for outdoor activities is not “feeble”, by any means. Such items are mini Blackpool Towers compared to the naked flames under glass houses, which proliferated the streets of London in 1888.

You’ll also note the difference between the surface area of a top or pullover and a very small handkerchief, produced for a fleeting moment 35 meters away.

I’ve never heard of anyone wearing their handkerchiefs in their outer overcoat pockets, nor have I heard of anyone whose abdomen protrudes to such an extent that a watch chain seal can be on display on a dark street underneath two overcoats.

But I suppose some people are anxious for the ripper to be an exotic “interesting” creature, and so bypass these and other common sense considerations.

Last edited by Ben : 07-30-2018 at 05:04 AM.
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  #867  
Old 07-30-2018, 08:01 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
No, Joshua, but it might make you someone who hasn’t researched the subject of Victorian gas lighting in any great depth. A modern day gas lantern of the type used for outdoor activities is not “feeble”, by any means. Such items are mini Blackpool Towers compared to the naked flames under glass houses, which proliferated the streets of London in 1888.

You’ll also note the difference between the surface area of a top or pullover and a very small handkerchief, produced for a fleeting moment 35 meters away.

I’ve never heard of anyone wearing their handkerchiefs in their outer overcoat pockets, nor have I heard of anyone whose abdomen protrudes to such an extent that a watch chain seal can be on display on a dark street underneath two overcoats.

But I suppose some people are anxious for the ripper to be an exotic “interesting” creature, and so bypass these and other common sense considerations.
Victorian gas lamps only emitted a down ward beam around a small area at the base of the lamp.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #868  
Old 07-30-2018, 09:39 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
No, I do not agree in the slightest that Hutchinson would have been better served by inventing a lower class Jew if his intent was to incriminate that particular community. You’ll remember that Hutchinson’s alleged motivation for loitering 45 minutes outside the court entrance - as initially accepted by the police - was that he was surprised to see a man so well dressed (i.e. as Astrakhan) in Kelly’s company.
A most unconvincing and disappointing response, Ben. I was hoping you could raise the bar a little higher than this.

You seem to be doing your best to ignore the point (made by Caz, among others) that Hutchinson volunteered that he had been loitering across from the court for 45 minutes.

This is one of several major weaknesses in your attempt to fit up Georgie. You have no explanation for his candid admission, and it makes mincemeat of your 'forced by circumstances to inject himself' argument.


If the impetus for GH coming forward was the brief sighting by Sarah Lewis, which you claim it was, he could have told Badham that he had walked all day, was shut out for the night, was tired and rested a few minutes, and then moved on. Full stop. There was utterly no reason why he would have needed to implicate himself further by stating he hung around for damn near an hour, walked up the court, etc.

So no, there was no reason to invent the man's fancy clothes to 'explain' his loitering for 45 minutes, since there was no reason to volunteer having been there for 45 minutes in the first place. If Hutch was a racist attempting to implicate our Jewish friends, he would have chosen a Kosminski of the Aaron type, and not of the Martin type.

P.S. You'll be happy to know I conducted more experiments last night, this time with an oil lamp and a group of Tibetan peace flags. The two bottles of stout also helped. I really encourage you to run some experiments of your own. Join Mr. Rogan in what might be called "hands on" field experiments. Other good ones concern how long a farthing candle will burn; how much light is emitted by burning clothes; can you really tell the difference between a half of pig's kidney soaked in spirits for two weeks and one that has soaked for only two days? The sky is the limit. Cheers.
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  #869  
Old 07-30-2018, 09:49 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Ben - I do have one question before heading out for the day. Maybe Harry could also chime in. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Lewis described the man she witnessed as 'short and stout.' The reporter described Hutchinson as of 'military appearance.' Does one usually use this latter phrase to describe someone that is short and stout? How do you know it is even the same man?

Recall that Lewis also mentioned a 'young man' in the street. It seems to me there was likely to have been many more people out and about than we always get when Ripperologists create these barren, stick-figure pantomimes in order to weave their theories.

Enjoy your afternoon.
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  #870  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:09 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Other good ones concern how long a farthing candle will burn...
Oh, a farthing candle! I swear that I initially did a double-take there, RJ.
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