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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #741  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:35 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I said nothing about time of death, Jon. There would have been plenty of gossip giving details of an 'orrible murder in a room in Miller's Court that morning, regardless of time, quite possibly with the name "Mary Kelly" associated with it. As one who had allegedly spoken with Mary Kelly that morning, tailing her and a surly stranger back to her room, any such gossip would surely have been of great interest to George Hutchinson. He didn't need to wait for the papers, nor their confusing, unofficial and unconfirmed reports of time of death.
Weren't all those who claimed to hear a cry of murder corralled in the court until allowed out by the police? And so not in a position to tell the press anything until it was too late to get it into print that day. Leaving the daylight sighting claims of Maxwell, Lewis, etc (who were free to talk to whomever they pleased) as (seemingly) the most reliable indicator for time of death.
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  #742  
Old 07-26-2018, 01:53 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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..... On a more serious note, though, I’m sorry to hear I’ve been the cause of offence. I certainly didn’t intend any mockery or belittlement.
I'm less inclined to think you do it by accident. It comes across to me as attention grabbing, but as I said before, some of your posts become at least humorous, if not entirely serious.


Quote:
Just to be clear on the money issue, are you saying that Hutchinson was lying about having no money to lend Kelly, and that he actually had sufficient funds to pay for his doss than night?
I don't see anything wrong with him denying her money. When you have no change to spare, it is much the same as having no money to give away.
Keeping the price of a bed aside is just the same as having no money to spare, in my book anyway.
Giving her 6d, even if it was the price of a bit of how's-yer-farther, isn't going to buy him the bed for the night. Then what happens in the morning when he needs a room elsewhere, and he's blown it for 30 minutes of 'fun'?

Quote:
Why, then, did he “walk about all night”? Why didn’t he seek shelter at one of the many lodging houses that proliferated the district?
We know from the Lodging-House Act that registered L.H.'s had to close for cleaning overnight. Consistent with this are the words of Wilkinson (in the Eddowes case) whose lodging-house closed at 2:30 am.
If the unregistered houses were full, and the registered one's closed, what is he to do?
It's not like he "must" be lying, a rational reason does exist.

Quote:
Overnight “cleaning” may well have occurred, but it would certainly not have impeded entry to the dormitories.
I'm not sure what you base that on.
Wilkinson's words were: "...The house is generally open until half-past two in the morning."
The context of that reply was concerning lodgers coming in after 2:00 am, presumably to those very same dormitories you mention.

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If Hutchinson’s intended lodging house that night was anywhere other than the address listed on his statement, Abberline would certainly have ascertained its location and mentioned it in the report.
He may have given Abberline his current address, but that address was not on the initial statement, that's all I'm saying.
For obvious reason's they need his current address.
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  #743  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:09 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
LOL! you do realize that people that argue from the opposite side may have different ideas?
What can be recognised as a sign of desperation is, when his accusers try to argue from both sides of the fence.
Also known as - changing horses in mid-stream.
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  #744  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:18 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I said nothing about time of death, Jon.
The time of a "cry of murder" has been the main thrust of your point from the start.

Quote:
There would have been plenty of gossip giving details of an 'orrible murder in a room in Miller's Court that morning, regardless of time, quite possibly with the name "Mary Kelly" associated with it. As one who had allegedly spoken with Mary Kelly that morning, tailing her and a surly stranger back to her room, any such gossip would surely have been of great interest to George Hutchinson. He didn't need to wait for the papers, nor their confusing, unofficial and unconfirmed reports of time of death.
Of course, on Friday afternoon, the gossip of a murder, but the victim seen in the late morning.
How does that impact Hutchinson, on his early night escapade?
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  #745  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:22 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
What can be recognised as a sign of desperation is, when his accusers try to argue from both sides of the fence.
Also known as - changing horses in mid-stream.
good lord wickster!

You:
Quote:
Can you guy's get your heads together to come up with something consistent?

Me:
Quote:
LOL! you do realize that people that argue from the opposite side may have different ideas?
people who argue against you-as in plural-can have different ideas-as in plural- from each other.

Is it context your struggling with today wicker or just in your world view everyone who debates you on hutch is one single minded monster?
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #746  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:38 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Weren't all those who claimed to hear a cry of murder corralled in the court until allowed out by the police?
I'm not sure, Joshua. Things weren't quite as "CSI" back in those days.

Besides, as I've suggested, it was enough that the streets would definitely have been buzzing with gossip about an 'orrible morning murder of a woman in her room at Miller's Court, quite possibly with the name Mary Kelly already connected to it. This alone should have been enough for Hutchinson, who'd left Kelly with a mysterious stranger in her room that morning, to come forward. No need for press reports of contradictory times of death, no need for the cries of "Murder!" to find their way into speech or print.
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  #747  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:48 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
The time of a "cry of murder" has been the main thrust of your point from the start.
Only in the context of my refutation of your insistence that the papers had settled the matter in respect of a later TOD, which is by no means clear-cut when the selfsame papers also report the earlier cries of "Murder!". Besides, the "cry of murder" is by no means the main thrust of my argument, just one aspect. As per my post immediately before this one, the mere fact that a woman had been 'orribly murdered in Miller's Court that morning should have been enough for Hutchinson to come forward, given that he'd seen Mary Kelly and a mysterious stranger enter, but not leave, her room that same morning.
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  #748  
Old 07-26-2018, 03:08 PM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi RJ,

I’m afraid I don’t agree with your analysis in the slightest, and it appears I’m far from alone.

You don’t even address the vast elephant in the room: why didn’t Hutchinson relate this alleged “Sunday sighting” when he first spoke with police? You can immediately and permanently forget the idea that Abberline neglected to mention such a critical detail in his report. So why only divulge this detail to the press? Don’t you think it’s an interesting coincidence that Hutchinson was “discredited” shortly after his “fuller” account appeared in the newspapers? In fact, the timing almost suggests the police were suspicious that this “Sunday sighting”, which should have been mention during the initial interview, may not have happened.

But you chose not to address any of this, instead evoking a very strange scenario in which Hutchinson eyeballs the Astrakhan man for a prolonged period and at close quarters on Sunday (with the latter oddly allowing him to do), this time managing to clear up those niggling mysteries that had eluded him that Friday morning, such as the shape of his tie-pin, the material of his shirt collar, and the colour of his eyelashes.

You’re still missing the very important point; Astrakhan man would have stood out anywhere, like a sore glittery thumb, especially in that part of the east end at that moment in history. Are you seriously suggesting that Hutchinson observed the same man wearing the same clothes and same very distinctive accessories, but wasn’t sure it was the same man, only “fancying” that it might have been? That it might have been a different man wearing an Astrakhan coat, horseshoe tie pin, linen collar, light buttons over button boots etc?

If you’re now suggesting that the bulk of detail he recalled was based on the Sunday sighting, you’re going to need one heck of a good explanation for the total absence of any reference to this episode in both the police statement and the accompanying report. It is impossible - not just ridiculously implausible, but irrefutably impossible - to accept that Abberline would not have made reference in his report to a Sunday sighting had Hutchinson mentioned one.

Also, if the description was based chiefly on Sunday’s non-existent sighting and the police accepted as much (they definitely didn’t and wouldn’t have done, but let’s pretend), they had absolutely no business publishing a description that may not even have been of the correct suspect, but rather a gold chain wearing market-goer who might have looked a bit like the man Hutchinson observed on Friday morning.

No, unless the police were truly moronic and incompetent, we must accept that the description that appeared on Hutchinson’s statement originated, as far as the police were concerned, from Hutchinson’s initial alleged encounter with Astrakhan and Kelly, otherwise it had no relevance whatsoever and could have led the investigation very dangerously astray.

Troublingly, it apparently also “works for you” that Hutchinson spoke to a policeman on that same Sunday. What’s your explanation, then, for that policeman’s failure to take any action at all, even after an informant had just observed a potential ripper suspect?

Furthermore, it would have taken a prolonged stare-down of several minutes for Hutchinson to have noticed (let alone memorised) all that he alleged, and yet this other man was presumably the ripper. Would he have tolerated yet another brazen intrusion by the same intrusively nosy individual? Doesn’t “work for me” at all. Remember that it isn’t just the degree of memorisation that troubles many; it’s his alleged ability to even notice that which he supposedly memorised.

All the best,
Ben

Last edited by Ben : 07-26-2018 at 03:14 PM.
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  #749  
Old 07-26-2018, 03:42 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm not sure, Joshua. Things weren't quite as "CSI" back in those days.

Besides, as I've suggested, it was enough that the streets would definitely have been buzzing with gossip about an 'orrible morning murder of a woman in her room at Miller's Court, quite possibly with the name Mary Kelly already connected to it. This alone should have been enough for Hutchinson, who'd left Kelly with a mysterious stranger in her room that morning, to come forward. No need for press reports of contradictory times of death, no need for the cries of "Murder!" to find their way into speech or print.
I think it's the Kennedy statement Joshua may be thinking of Sam
She said nobody was allowed to leave the court until 5pm I think
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  #750  
Old 07-26-2018, 03:47 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
....
You're assuming that an officer went to tell Abberline that Barnett had showed up and if so do you really believe he wouldn't have taken Barnett down with him knowing full well that Abberline would need to speak to him .
The 'barnett was sent for' is clearly a journalistic error
In the 19th century, the police communicated by 'runners', for want of a better word. Constables had to run between the crime scene and the station to carry messages back and forth.
Unless there was telegraph available, which perhaps not at Millers Court

No-one is going to second-guess the Scotland Yard inspector (Abberline).
Their job is to inform him that the victims partner has turned up at the station. Abberline will decide where he wants to interview him, in the court or at the station.
A simple response by Abberline like, "Great, fetch him 'ere", would suffice.
(Thats 'ere not hair)
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