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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #101  
Old 02-26-2018, 03:12 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?
Nothing switched Dave, the Mitchell case merely confirms what Prater told the court. That she lived in rm 20, over the shed, which faced Dorset St.
Prater also noticed the lodging-house light was out, which she believed meant it was past 4 O'clock.
We have a photo of Dorset St. showing the huge lodging-house lights hanging out front.
Room 20 was out front, and overlooked Dorset St.
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  #102  
Old 02-26-2018, 03:33 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Richard, out of interest; is there a problem with taking Roberts description literally? Does it conflict with any other descriptions?

Where do you have the narrow first floor passage situated on your model?
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  #103  
Old 02-26-2018, 04:46 PM
richardh richardh is offline
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If we take it literally and have the door to #19 at the very top of the stairs (going parallel to the partition), then we have to place the stairs to the next floor, the storeroom and the door to #20 in positions that would agree with the rest of the court statements. The doors need to be positioned so you would see the other door when exiting either room, the storeroom would need to be on the passageway side of the landing and the stairs to floor 2 would need to be positioned to allow for all this. We know that the space between the rooms (#19 /#20) was 9ft and I read somewhere that the storeroom was described as 9ft x 5ft (think it was 5ft) so the storeroom spanned the width of the landing/narrow passageway. I don't think having stairs up the partition wall would allow for all this.

My model at the moment has the stairs running exactly like the Hanbury Street photo - directly in line with the front door, going up and turning to the right onto a landing with the door to #19 on the left and the storeroom right in front - room #20 to the right. This allows for the stairs to go up to the next level and also agrees with the court statements about:
"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"

There are multitude ways that I can arrange the 1st-floor landing but the model I have at the moment seems to tick many of the necessary boxes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Richard, out of interest; is there a problem with taking Roberts description literally? Does it conflict with any other descriptions?

Where do you have the narrow first floor passage situated on your model?
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  #104  
Old 02-26-2018, 05:58 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.
No. 20 overlooked Dorset St.
What "outhouse"?, the Ronan sketch shows the W/C where it stood in 1909, but in 1888 the W/C was at the other end of Millers Court, next to units 5/6.
This is also where the 1890 Goad Plan shows them.
The "shed" was beneath room 20, and opened up onto Dorset St. This is where McCarthy kept his wheelbarrows.

Quote:
3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.
The attic over No.27, yes.

Quote:
The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.
Three of those six chimney's could belong to next door, No.25 Dorset St.

Quote:
The stairway would have run parallel to 13.
The internal stairs would enter the next level inline with the partition for rm 13, that's all we can reasonably conclude. This is what Richard's 3D model indicated.
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  #105  
Old 02-27-2018, 12:05 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardh View Post
If we take it literally and have the door to #19 at the very top of the stairs (going parallel to the partition), then we have to place the stairs to the next floor, the storeroom and the door to #20 in positions that would agree with the rest of the court statements. The doors need to be positioned so you would see the other door when exiting either room, the storeroom would need to be on the passageway side of the landing and the stairs to floor 2 would need to be positioned to allow for all this. We know that the space between the rooms (#19 /#20) was 9ft and I read somewhere that the storeroom was described as 9ft x 5ft (think it was 5ft) so the storeroom spanned the width of the landing/narrow passageway. I don't think having stairs up the partition wall would allow for all this.

My model at the moment has the stairs running exactly like the Hanbury Street photo - directly in line with the front door, going up and turning to the right onto a landing with the door to #19 on the left and the storeroom right in front - room #20 to the right. This allows for the stairs to go up to the next level and also agrees with the court statements about:
"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"

There are multitude ways that I can arrange the 1st-floor landing but the model I have at the moment seems to tick many of the necessary boxes.
Yes, that makes sense, Richard.
The only thing that bothers me is that the signed statements used at Worship St Magistrates Court show some slight differences.
For example, in his statement , Amery describes the space between the two rooms as between 6 and 7 feet. Wouldn't that be the width of the narrow passage and the windowless room slotted between being that width?



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  #106  
Old 02-27-2018, 12:29 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&r...19803142550969

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
No. 20 overlooked Dorset St.
What "outhouse"?, the Ronan sketch shows the W/C where it stood in 1909, but in 1888 the W/C was at the other end of Millers Court, next to units 5/6.
This is also where the 1890 Goad Plan shows them.
The "shed" was beneath room 20, and opened up onto Dorset St. This is where McCarthy kept his wheelbarrows.



The attic over No.27, yes.



Three of those six chimney's could belong to next door, No.25 Dorset St.



The internal stairs would enter the next level inline with the partition for rm 13, that's all we can reasonably conclude. This is what Richard's 3D model indicated.
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  #107  
Old 02-28-2018, 06:01 AM
richardh richardh is offline
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Jerry,
this is how #11 & #12 might have been laid out:
(YouTube)
https://youtu.be/qlqov49u_dM?t=11m13s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

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  #108  
Old 02-28-2018, 07:36 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardh View Post
Jerry,
this is how #11 & #12 might have been laid out:
Thanks Richard,

I think you are right on. Thanks very much. Your work is very good. Keep it up!
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  #109  
Old 03-03-2018, 04:30 AM
richardh richardh is offline
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On the plan (below) we are told that #11/#12 is 12ft x 12.2ft




On Goad's, we can see #12 (marked red) and we can see #13 (marked green) as being longer than #12.





From this, can we say that #13 was at least 15ft from door to chimney wall?

I'm trying to get some detailed and accurate measurements of #13 and an experiment i did yesterday has thrown up some odd anomalies that I'm trying to figure out. For instance, it would seem that the BIG window of #13 is not central to the wall it's built into. The BIG window of #19 (above) is a mismatch and looks to be wider than the big window of #13. Also, the big window looks to be bigger than i thought in height - I thought it was about 5th high (sill to brick window arc) but now i make it to be 6ft). Also, this would mean that the ceiling height of #13 might have been closer to 10 ft high! - surely too high for a ceiling?
This would make the small window height and the door to #13 to be 7ft high - again surely too high for the door?

advice, please.
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  #110  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:57 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Hi Richard.

The Goad Plan of Dorset St. provides a dimension for the width of the street at 25 feet.
This image shows two and a half squares (in pencil) across the width of the street. Each square is 10 feet on each side.



If we superimpose two of those squares (in red) over Kelly's room we see that the depth of her room was close to 10 feet, but the width was 1 1/2 of those squares, so close to 15 feet.

We have press estimates of 12' x 12', and another at 15' x 12'.
The Goads Plan seems to confirm the 15' dim, but tends to suggest the 12' estimate was closer to 10'.
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