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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #821  
Old 07-29-2018, 01:00 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Hi Simon. Thanks for the article; it’s a good one. But of course, this only addresses whether Hutchinson was accurate in calling the hanky red; it has no bearing on whether he was honest in calling the hanky red—if you see the distinction. The gaslight may have played tricks on his eyes, but he believed what he was telling Badham. By contrast, I think Hinton’s argument was that there can be no color in poor lighting (due to the lack of wavelengths, etc) so someone claiming to have seen any color is inherently a liar.

Abby – ‘fig’ only requires three asterisks, not four.
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  #822  
Old 07-29-2018, 01:51 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi.
It is not within the realms of possibility That Hutchinson incorporated the handkerchief into his account because he was worried that the red one which belonged to him,. which he left in Mary's room that morning , would incriminate him.
I am not implying he killed her, just realised once she was found dead, all items in her room would have been noted.
Lets say Mr A existed, she did come across him as stated, he did accompany Mary back to Millers court, but stayed with Kelly only around 45 minutes , and left..
Hutchinson then walks up the passage and asks Mary could he doss down for a couple of hours until dawn. she allows this, and lets him in, shortly after, she asks to borrow a handkerchief, he hands it to her [ a red one] and upon leaving just after six , leaves it in the room.
Topping was described as rather dapper, the description of attending a music hall with suitable clothing including a cane [ which nearly tripped up his bride to be] suggests that. so he may well have been in the habit of carrying a silk handkerchief.?
Lets consider this scenario..
Late Friday morning he hears of the murder in the court, he then hears its the Kelly Woman.
He would be asking for trouble informing the police he stayed with her that morning,, but realised that he had left his handkerchief in her room, a silk one, and was paranoid the police might associate it with him, as he may have been well known for having one.[ who knows?].
But he did see Mr A , If he incorporated that handkerchief into that account, he would be .
a] Giving a description of a man he saw Kelly with, [ even if he knew he had left He may have returned later for all he knew.]
b] Explaining how the Handkerchief got into her room..
The fact that he said a Red One, was a mistake on his part,, as it has been discussed on here how adamant he was, which was silly of him.
All of this does not incriminate Hutchinson,he did see Mr A, he could not admit being in Mary's room, so he used the stranger as a means to give an identity to who the item belonged to.
Regards Richard.

Last edited by richardnunweek : 07-29-2018 at 01:55 AM.
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  #823  
Old 07-29-2018, 03:04 AM
harry harry is offline
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If we are to accept Hutchinson told the truth,that he did not fabricate any part of his statement,that he told it exactly as it happened,on what occasion w as he able to observe those items below neck level.His statement is that he looked up into the man's face as Aman passed under the light.No mention of him(Hutchinson) looking down.Yet the lower details are as detailed as the facial descriptions.

Like any other part of his story,it has to be shown there was any light at all.Was that particular lamp lit that night?Was the ambient light good enough to observe small objects?

.Same thing about lamp light and other light sources at the court.We Have Lewis's description of Hutchinson to contend with.How much did she see.Not much,and she was a whole lot closer at that location.
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  #824  
Old 07-29-2018, 03:58 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
It is not within the realms of possibility That Hutchinson incorporated the handkerchief into his account because he was worried that the red one which belonged to him,. which he left in Mary's room that morning , would incriminate him.
I've sometimes seen this suggested by various people on all sides of the argument, but I can't quite work out how the handkerchief could have been traced back to him, especially in the days before DNA analysis. The only realistic mechanism I can imagine is if his full name was embroidered on the hanky, which would be extremely unlikely.
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  #825  
Old 07-29-2018, 04:50 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi RJ,

Not that it matters a jot in the great scheme of things, but how do we know that Mr. A's handkerchief wasn't green or a shade of tan?

The Electrical Journal, 1901 -

Attachment 18736

Regards,

Simon
Good morning Simon.

I think you'll find that posters who basically take Hutchinson at his word don't really care what the true colour of the handkerchief was.
However, you may incur the wrath of some anti-Hutchinson posters who demand it must be red to connect Hutch with the Eddowes murder.
They can't afford to lose any points of argument, they have so few to start with.
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  #826  
Old 07-29-2018, 05:29 AM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Some posters seem to be working from an if A then B mindset. In other words, show that Hutchinson lied and that therefore makes him Mary's killer and possibly the Ripper. The reality is however that that only shows he lied. A case still needs to be made for the latter.

c.d.
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  #827  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:11 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Yes we do, Jon.

We know for an absolute certainly that the place where he “usually slept” was the Victoria Home,...
The fact remains, we do not. The strength of your conviction does not change that fact.

Quote:
..... thus rendering all the more perplexing his decision to saunter 12 miles in frigid conditions, in the small hours of a November night, in the certainly that his lodgings would be closed to him by the time he arrived “home” in Whitechapel.
You call 36 deg F, 'frigid'?
We do not know when he set off, or why, or whether he even intended to go straight to his "usual place", where ever that was.
You're guessing again in order to make his story appear suspicious.


Quote:
In winter? In southern Ontario? I don’t believe you, Jon.
What does a Canadian winter have to do with this?
It was London, it was November, the temp. was 36 deg F.
I don't really care if you believe me. If I say black, you'll say white. If I say up, you'll say down. I know what goes on here in Fall (Autumn), and I wouldn't say this if it wasn't true. The exasperation of Red Cross workers is repeated every year because many of the homeless refuse their help.


Quote:
Damn, you got me there. I must have foolishly ruled out the possibility that the PC in question made a note of Hutchinson’s story, but deliberately neglected or forgot to alert his superiors about it.
So, is this the fact you talked about? Another assumption?
You don't 'think' the PC made any notes, you don't 'think' he told his superior?
And what exactly, do you 'think' his superior would do if the PC had passed this information on?
Along with all the other stories, and theories, and accusations, coming in from all manner of directions every day.
Perhaps, his superior just thought the same as you?


Quote:
...... the idea that if people refuse to buy what you’re selling, it must be because they are “unable to think for themselves”.
Who's refused anything?, and why does the old 'pat-on-the-back' matter to you so much?
Stand on your own two feet for a change.


Quote:
So you keep saying, but what was his excuse for not coming forward on Saturday morning then, when you agree he would have been “exposed to both theories”?
How many years have you been pushing this question?
Ie; "there is no way a 'friend?', or acquaintance, would not have come forward".
Yes, you and others.

Yet, time and time again you have been educated on the fact that witnesses in murder cases, whether friends, or neighbours of the victim have not come forward for days, or weeks or even years.
Some don't want to get involved, other feel they may be victimized themselves. It doesn't matter what the reason is, the fact remains your 'belief' is not true.
Didn't RJ give examples this time?, I do remember others in previous years. Bridewell was another who gave you the benefit of his experience, but no, here you are again regurgitating the same false argument.
It's like you guy's never learn anything.
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  #828  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:19 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Hi Simon. Thanks for the article; it’s a good one. But of course, this only addresses whether Hutchinson was accurate in calling the hanky red; it has no bearing on whether he was honest in calling the hanky red—if you see the distinction. The gaslight may have played tricks on his eyes, but he believed what he was telling Badham. By contrast, I think Hinton’s argument was that there can be no color in poor lighting (due to the lack of wavelengths, etc) so someone claiming to have seen any color is inherently a liar.

Abby – ‘fig’ only requires three asterisks, not four.
Lol..
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #829  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:21 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
I’m sorry to say that it’s a good deal easier to spot nonsense written on the subject of Hutchinson’s visual and recollective abilities than it was to register not only a handkerchief, but its colour and pattern, from 120 feet away on a darkened Victorian street at night time.
Hutchinson was standing across the street, not even 25 ft away.
Lewis saw him there, remember?
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  #830  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:21 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Some posters seem to be working from an if A then B mindset. In other words, show that Hutchinson lied and that therefore makes him Mary's killer and possibly the Ripper. The reality is however that that only shows he lied. A case still needs to be made for the latter.

c.d.
Absolutely cd.

If i had a gun pointed at my head and was asked did he tell the whole truth, lied because he was an attention getter, or killer. Id go with liar/attention seeker.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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