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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #101  
Old 12-13-2015, 01:48 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: I know - and it's a point I made on a podcast before this thread started. I don't have a problem with this, and it's quite feasible that the killer learned some of his "anatomical knowledge" from such models.

Glad that at least is agreed.

Of course there's a doubt! We have no idea how the model viscera were distributed. These were ostensibly educational tools - sure, there may well have been a thrill-seeking element, but I doubt very much that they were invariably set up to foreshadow 13 Miller's Court every time.

I am anything but sure that the liver ended up between the feet of the Venus too - not least since she had crossed legs in many examples. But that is not the point I am making. I am making the point that the innards were plucked out of the wax figure and placed outside her. Realistically, they ended up close to the figure, and quite probably on the surface she was lying on. That´s quite enough to produce a copy of what happened in Millers Court. The figure on the bed would be a very close match, adbominal wall and breasts removed, lying on her back.
We can quibble, I´m sure, about the details, but I will not contribute to such a thing. They will have been very, very alike, as has been observed by numerous posters out here already.

The Ripper's signature was abdominal excavation and, whilst he may have hacked and slashed at Eddowes' and Kelly's face, there is no evidence that he attempted to systematically peel away the skin.

I have never suggested such a thing either. I have said that the 1873 torso victim had her face peeled off from her skull, leaving HER a good comparison with a number of wax figures.
I want to discuss what I suggest only - not what others may suggest on my behalf. One has to keep close track of the different victims and their damages to keep up with the discussion.

Of course, he also left their bodies where they were - rather than chopping them into cutlets and throwing them in the Thames, for example.

Let´s be a bit charitable here, Gareth - cutting people up in pieces is time-consuming and toolconsuming too. In all probability, the torso victims were handled in much longer periods of time and with seclusion. There is, of course, the fact that Phillips suggested that the killer had tried to cut off Chapmans head, so if that sort of thing is what you require, there you are.

Not so. There are legitimate reasons for doubting even Kelly's candidacy as a "true" Ripper victim (not that I entirely subscribe to them), let alone Jackson's.

There perhaps used to be. But the removal of these victims abdominal walls in large flaps dissolves that suggestion into thin air. That matter is conclusively pointing in one direction only.

But you forgot to tell me the other cases you knew of where the victims had their abdomens cut away in large flaps à la Jackson/Chapman/Kelly. There were some examples, you mentioned. Such examples could of course raise the probability of more than one killer - albeit not much if it was just the one or two examples. But anyhow, since you have access to them, could we please share?

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  #102  
Old 12-13-2015, 01:49 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I don´t think it is far-fetched to make the guess that these illustrativ lectures involved taking the innards out and placing them outside the abdomen.
Not far-fetched at all, I agree. But we don't need a wax-dummy and an illustrated lecture to know that whatever's inside a body can be removed and placed outside the body. That's been common knowledge for hundreds of thousands of years.

Knowing exactly where those innards are, and how they relate to one another, requires a tad more knowledge, albeit not much more, and models such as these could have helped the Ripper in that regard.
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  #103  
Old 12-13-2015, 01:58 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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But you forgot to tell me the other cases you knew of where the victims had their abdomens cut away in large flaps à la Jackson/Chapman/Kelly
I'm not going to play that silly game, Fish. I don't have the data, and I'm not going to go looking for it. Suffice to say that Jack the Ripper can't have been the only man in history to hit upon that method for removing abdominal flesh with a knife. There are only so many ways it can be done.

Still not convinced about Jackson, mainly because she ended up being thrown in kit-form into the Thames, whereas Chapman and Kelly (etc) were left where they lay, with their limbs still very much attached.
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  #104  
Old 12-13-2015, 02:12 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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In all probability, the torso victims were handled in much longer periods of time and with seclusion.
Indeed, Fish. Another departure from the Ripper's way-of-working.
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There is, of course, the fact that Phillips suggested that the killer had tried to cut off Chapmans head, so if that sort of thing is what you require, there you are.
I doubt that an experienced torso-killer wouldn't know how to remove a head. As recent horrors in the Middle East have shown us, it doesn't take long, once you know what to do.
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  #105  
Old 12-13-2015, 02:19 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: I'm not going to play that silly game, Fish. I don't have the data, and I'm not going to go looking for it. Suffice to say that Jack the Ripper can't have been the only man in history to hit upon that method for removing abdominal flesh with a knife. There are only so many ways it can be done.

That´s not a very nice thing to say, Gareth: "silly games", bearing in mind that you started them yourself:

My words: As for the Torso man and the Ripper not being one and the same can you tell me just how many serial murder (or singular murder) cases you are aware of, where the abdominal walls have been cut away from the victims in a couple of large flaps, reaching all the way down to, and involving, the outer genitalia?

Your words: Not many, but then I'm not sure that this is really what happened to any of the torso murder victims.

You thereby stated that you did not know of "many" such cases, which in it´s turn implicated that you knew of SOME.

That is what I call a silly game, when you thereafter are forced to admit that you know of NONE - but conveniently predispose that it must have happened.


Nota bene that it is NOT just a question of removing the abdominal wall, it is a question of removing it in large flaps with the external genitals attaching to them - EXACTLY the way it looks in the anatomical Venuses.

Myself, I have not been able to find one single such case apart from the ones we are discussing, and since you (understandably) say that you are not going to go looking for them (but instead you predispose that they are there - how very convenient!) there will be no examples from your side. You are out double-quick, and I don´t blame you...


Still not convinced about Jackson, mainly because she ended up being thrown in kit-form into the Thames, whereas Chapman and Kelly (etc) were left where they lay, with their limbs still very much attached.

Gareth, all the parts of Jackson, more or less, were found with very few exceptions. They were normally wrapped in cloth and floated down the river. One parcel involved two large flaps of the abdominal wall together with the uterus (but without the fetus that had been there) and parts of the placenta. The two flaps fit perfectly into what was left of Jackson, just as they fit perfectly together. So what exactly is there to not be convinced about? How could the flaps NOT have been removed from the abdomen? Who would have done it, other than the killer?
Are you drawing swords with Trevor Marriott here, and suggesting a medical student...?

It is PROVEN that the abdominal wall was taken away from Jackson in two large flaps. It is not suggested. But let´s do it theoretically, if that is what you prefer:

If Jackson indeed did have her abdominal wall removed in two large flaps with the outer genitalia attached by her killer, just as Chapman and Kelly had their respective abdominal walls taken away in large flaps with the outer genitalia attached by THEIR killer(s), would you say that it is a pretty damn good suggestion that the killer was one and the same in such a case?


Or would you rather stick with the notion that Chapman and Kelly could have been killed by different men, and that the torso man and the ripper were not one and the same, and that these three ladies actually ALL had their abdominal walls removed in large flaps with the outer genitalia attaching to them - BY THREE DIFFERENT MEN?

I am done for the evening - I can stomach only so much onedimensional naysaying, and I am less attracted to hear it from you than from anybody else, since I am quite aware that you don´t have to do it.

Goodnight, Gareth!

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-13-2015 at 02:30 PM.
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  #106  
Old 12-13-2015, 02:53 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm not going to play that silly game, Fish. I don't have the data, and I'm not going to go looking for it. Suffice to say that Jack the Ripper can't have been the only man in history to hit upon that method for removing abdominal flesh with a knife. There are only so many ways it can be done.

Still not convinced about Jackson, mainly because she ended up being thrown in kit-form into the Thames, whereas Chapman and Kelly (etc) were left where they lay, with their limbs still very much attached.
Hi Sam
I've said this many times before but I'll point out again that if the ripper and torso man were the same then the apparent difference on MO could simply be that the torso victims were when he could bring the victims to his private place and the dismemberment was simply for ease in disposal and the ripper victims were when he couldn't bring to his place and had to kill in the street.

Debra Arif has shown that all the torso victims had some additional post mortem mutilation above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment including abdominal mutilations.

And fish is correct the chances that two different serial killers interested in post mortem mutilation and removed the flaps of skin the same way working in the same time frame and location is practically zilch IMHO.


I think it's high time ripperology start taking the idea that they were one in the same man seriously.
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  #107  
Old 12-13-2015, 03:15 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Myself, I have not been able to find one single such case apart from the ones we are discussing, and since you (understandably) say that you are not going to go looking for them (but instead you predispose that they are there - how very convenient!)
No need to be sarcastic. I made a legitimate point.
Quote:
The two flaps fit perfectly into what was left of Jackson, just as they fit perfectly together. So what exactly is there to not be convinced about? How could the flaps NOT have been removed from the abdomen? Who would have done it, other than the killer?
I'm not denying that two flaps of abdominal flesh had been removed from Elizabeth Jackson. I'm just saying that this is nowhere near enough of a reason to tie her killer into the Ripper murders. The victimology, MO and signatures are completely different.
Quote:
Or would you rather stick with the notion that Chapman and Kelly could have been killed by different men, and that the torso man and the ripper were not one and the same, and that these three ladies actually ALL had their abdominal walls removed in large flaps with the outer genitalia attaching to them - BY THREE DIFFERENT MEN?
For crying out loud! I said that I didn't subscribe to those doubts about Kelly, didn't I? Good, so we can forget the "three men" bit for starters. What I am saying is that there were likely two different men involved - one who killed Kelly/Chapman, and another who did for Jackson.

This is suggested even by the nature of the wounds themselves. Jackson's wounds comprised two long, narrow strips of flesh, unlike the three large flaps of flesh (Kelly) and the three flaps of indeterminate size in the case of Chapman. Furthermore, Jackson's uterus had been cut into, but - unlike Kelly, Chapman or Eddowes - it was left inside Jackson's body. There's a case for believing that this was an abortion gone wrong, or a murder of a pregnant young woman with subsequent removal (and disposal?) of her baby.

The circumstances of Elizabeth Jackson's death, the manner of her mutilation, and what happened to her body afterwards, are distinctly different to what happened to the "canonical" victims of Jack the Ripper.
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I am done for the evening - I can stomach only so much one-dimensional nay-saying
Indeed, it must take a lot out of you
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 12-13-2015 at 03:17 PM.
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  #108  
Old 12-13-2015, 04:07 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I really don't understand the apparent knee jerk reaction so many people seem to have against the idea that torso man and the ripper were one in the same?

It shouldn't be that controversial an idea should it?
The annals of serial crime are littered with cases where it is later discovered that the extent of the killers victims was much more than previously thought. And alot of times because the apparent MO and or sig look different.
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  #109  
Old 12-14-2015, 12:03 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: No need to be sarcastic. I made a legitimate point.

Well, you made the point that some serial killer, somewhere, will have done to some victim the same thing that was done to Jackson, Chapman and Kelly. I would have thought that the legitimacy of that kind of point hinged on expamples that would go to prove such a thing, but apparently this is not so. The point is "legitimate" anyway. Go figure, sort of.
Okay.

I'm not denying that two flaps of abdominal flesh had been removed from Elizabeth Jackson. I'm just saying that this is nowhere near enough of a reason to tie her killer into the Ripper murders. The victimology, MO and signatures are completely different.

If a trait in a murder case is completely exclusive, then that overrides the matters you bring up. If a killer gets into the habit of, say, gouging out the eyes of his victims, then it matters little if one victim is shot and another one strangled - the gouging out of the eyes MUST rule that the investigation accepts that it is either the same killer, a copycat or a monumental coincidence.
The exact same applies here.


For crying out loud! I said that I didn't subscribe to those doubts about Kelly, didn't I?

For crying out silently - you pointed to how that must remain a possibility. I can agree with that without letting it impact on the fact that Kellys cutaway abdominal flaps are a perfect parallel to what happened to Chapman and Jackson.
Clearly, when you pointed out the Kelly-may-have-been-killed-by-another-man, it was to take away from the notion that the flaps pointe to the same killer. So I don´t see what is buggering you when I listen to your suggestion.
If you think Kelly had the same killer as the rest of the canonical five, then you will realize that the abdominal flaps represent very clear evidence that this was so.
But for some reason, you choose to go with what others have suggested, since that is the best way to detract from the suggestion that the Ripper and the Tors killer were one and the same. It´s tactical, but is it clever tactics?

Good, so we can forget the "three men" bit for starters. What I am saying is that there were likely two different men involved - one who killed Kelly/Chapman, and another who did for Jackson.

...and they both came up with the idea to cut away the adominal walls in large flaps with the outer genitalia attaching, seven months only telling their respective whims apart?
Look, Gareth, you say that the Ripper was an eviscerator, and the torso man was someone who quartered his victims like pigs. But what do týou think it amounts to when somebody opens up a belly by cutting away the abdominal wall, carves out the uterus and placenta, packs it up in a parcel and floats it down the Thames. Is that not evisceration? Then what is it?


This is suggested even by the nature of the wounds themselves. Jackson's wounds comprised two long, narrow strips of flesh, unlike the three large flaps of flesh (Kelly) and the three flaps of indeterminate size in the case of Chapman.

The Chapman flaps were large flaps too. They were described, and I have quoted the description - I think it was Jon Guy who found it. I can look it up if you want to.
Did you notice that you just said that long and narrow could not be described as large? That is an odd thing to say. I would propose that there is nothing in the two descriptions "long and narrow" and "large" that tells us that they could not have been exactly the same.
Not that it matters very much, since the description of the Jackson flaps was never "long and narrow" - it was "long and irregular".
And I think that we must accept that the flaps from Kelly must have been long too, since they were described:
"The skin and tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps."

Maybe they were less irregular than Jacksons flaps? Maybe THAT is what tells us that it could not have been the same killer?

Furthermore, Jackson's uterus had been cut into, but - unlike Kelly, Chapman or Eddowes - it was left inside Jackson's body.

Was it? I thought it was packed together with the placenta and the abdominal flaps and floated down the Thames.

There's a case for believing that this was an abortion gone wrong, or a murder of a pregnant young woman with subsequent removal (and disposal?) of her baby.

Yes, that sounds very probable, since abortionists often cut away the abdominal walls of their patients. And yes, that was sarcasm. And yes, it was called for.

The circumstances of Elizabeth Jackson's death, the manner of her mutilation, and what happened to her body afterwards, are distinctly different to what happened to the "canonical" victims of Jack the Ripper.
Indeed, it must take a lot out of you

Take a lot out of me? Something takes a lot out of me - but it´s not your "facts". They dissolve like trolls in the morning sun.
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  #110  
Old 12-14-2015, 06:57 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Was it? I thought it was packed together with the placenta and the abdominal flaps and floated down the Thames.
That's correct. Elizabeth's uterus including ovaries, broad ligaments, plus attached top section of her vagina and part wall of her bladder was removed from her body and parcelled up together with the flaps of skin and placenta and was one of the two parcels found first. The irregular flaps from the abdomen included the external organs of generation and part of the right buttock.

Her pelvis containing the lower part of the vagina and remaining part of the bladder was found separately.

Her chest cavity was also emptied and her heart never recovered.
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