Different Killers

[Jon Guy]

what concerns me is people filling in the blanks and accepting these as facts...that has been going on for 100 plus years

Absolutely agree !!
So, what makes you think Pipeman killed Stride ?

[Jon Guy]

One of my doubts about Stride is that 'BS' man seems quite uncharacteristic of the Ripper, accosting a woman outside a busy social club, in the middle of the street in front of multiple witnesses. Herein lies the fault with having a preconceived notion of the killer. He was only human, after all.

BS Man was not aware of Schwartz walking behind him until he had already started throwing Stride about.

Did BS an see Pipeman ? Schwartz didn`t notice Pipeman until he crossed the road.

Perhaps, the Ripper was a brutish thug, who swung his victims to the ground?.
For all we know, once Lawende and his mates has come out of the club opposite and passed Church Passage, sailor man (if he) could have punched the living daylights out of poor old Eddowes and dragged her across the square to the corner.

The difference between the behaviour of Church passage man and BS Man could be explained by the fact that Church passage man was aware of the approaching Lawende (at some point he did change tact quite drastically) whereas BS Man didn`t seem to know Schwartz was behind him.

[chrismasonic]

I'm not telling anyone that is how it happened...Israel was scared enough to mess his trousers and flee...I see no reason to illuminate them from suspicion...

i'm ready to listen if anyone can put these guys in the frame for any of the other murders...

[Michael W Richards]

Schwartz.

Why do we need to propose another attacker? He likely saw the attack take place. She was thrown not gently laid down. Coat is caked on one side in mud as if dragged a few feet.

Again why not propose a different killer for each of the canonical 5 by this multiple killer hypothesis?

The evidence does not support her being dragged, the mud was on the side of her that was laying in it. And Israel may well be the red herring that prevents any progress being made on this issue, because he certainly is not part of any Inquest into the death of Liz Stride by the records, and that should suggest to students that his story was not viable. Its inconceivable to suggest he wouldn't have been important to the Inquest based on his story, so his absence is telling I believe.

As to different killers for each Canonical, there really isn't any need to go that far. We have ample evidence that the first 2 women were almost certainly killed by the same person. The same victimology, methodology, signature actions and skill and knowledge is present. The only other Canonical who fits most of those categories might be Kate, but I cant believe someone as skilled with a knife as the killer of the first 2 would suddenly lose those abilities. A shorter time with the body might explain that though...maybe he rushed.

But Liz could have been killed by anyone, there is nothing extraordinary about her murder at all, and she dies on the property of known anarchists. In todays lexicon, that's akin to being found on the property of an outlaw bike gang. Lawless people inside, lawless people drawn to the location.

Cheers

[chrismasonic]

makes sense...

[MrBarnett]

IWMC = LVP Hells Angels????

[Wickerman]

I just suggest this method could have been utilised...not that it was

properly applied a choke will render someone unconscious in approx. 7 seconds...

Properly applied, that is the key.
In these cases I fail to see how this choke-hold could have been properly applied.

The most effective application is when the attacker has bare arms, and the victim an exposed neck.
The women wore coats with collars that would impede an effective hold.
The hold is most effective when the hold is tight, but the more clothing that exists between the arm and the neck, the least effective the hold is.

I hardly think our killer went about the East end at that hour with bare arms, likely he was wearing an overcoat, and possibly a jacket underneath.

Try it someday, although the hold would be uncomfortable for the victim, such a hold by an arm with a jacket and/or coat sleeve pressing against the womans high or thick, possibly stiff jacket collar, allows very little pressure to the arteries. There is too much material in the way.

I really doubt this could be an effective method in these cases.
Only in the case of Kelly, where she may have been largely undressed when attacked, only then may we see this method being effectively applied.

I favor the use of a garrotte of some description, simply due to the fact there was no visible evidence of pressure marks on the neck made by a thumb & fingers.

[chrismasonic]

I utilise this technique regularly wearing a thick jiu-jitsu gi...against others wearing the same apparel...

you do not need bare arms to apply even a crude version of the technique...

[Pcdunn]

I was trying to find an article I'd read about how pervasive the garrotte was in LVP London, and instead stumbled across this link on weaponry of the time and place:

http://historum.com/european-history/64701-victorian-london-criminal-underworld-weaponry-question.html

Nemowork comments, in part: "The garrotte was a favourite with street robbers because with narrow alleys and no street lighting it was easy to lurk and ambush somebody.
Police were issued with anti-garotting leather collars for a long time, basically a leather band with an raised protection under the chin to stop the wire slipping up and over the collar."

[Batman]

The claim that Schwartz was omitted from the inquest because his story was shady isn't valid because the investigator's report the opposite in their notes post-inquest. They believed him throughout the Whitechapel murders.

Not much differences between the man he seen and Lawende saw.

[Ausgirl]

Bahaha. Hell's Angels.. I pictured motorised pennyfarthings.

I've spent a good bit of time on the Old Bailey Online website lately, and it's really incredible how common cut throats were in street crime, but also in domestic violence cases. Cut throats left and right. And if the woman healed well by the time the case went to court (never mind the scars, muscle damage, trauma, hello.. she had her throat/face slashed open!) and/or had encouraged her potential killer by calling him names, say, or throwing a shoe at him, he might be found not guilty or more commonly get one month to six months prison with or without hard labour.

How ho-hum does a cut throat have to be, to consistently earn the slasher *one month* in the slammer?

And if she was a prostitute - well, it's to be expected, isn't it, no biggie at all. And she's probably lying, says the several cases I found where the victim has to prove she wasn't trying to rob Mr. Razor-happy when he narrowly missed her windpipe and saved himself a whole five years in the colonies for murder. If he was unlucky.

I think if there was not a more 'typical' Ripper murder immediately after, Stride's death would have been ho-hum. Occupational hazard. Even if she wasn't selling herself in that particular period, she was not a 'respectable' woman, and wasd not in a respectable area at a respectable hour. If her murder happened prior to Millwood and Tabram and Nichols, I think the police might not have blinked.

But Nichols - Chapman - Eddowes - Kelly - those are some stand out murders. And quibbles over how sober he was for this or that murder, or how much medical knowledge each murder exhibits, aside - those four murders are unusual enough to shock seasoned East End policeman, and similar enough that I would lay money on modern police suspecting a single killer, if these precise four crimes occurred in any 3-4 month period, in the same general area.

It's an established, irrefutable fact that serial killers can and often do change the way they do things from murder to murder, for whatever reason. And this includes sloppy crimes nestled among some that run to an extremely precise 'script'. They change victim selection criterion, too, smack in the middle of a series of murders where one 'type' is highly visible.

Those four murders were the same guy, c'monnn.

I'm dubious about Stride. Less dubious about Tabram. I mean, he stabbed the organs, rather than removing and playing about in them. But then, read the above part about killers changing MO. I'm doing that side-to-side hand thing, eh... dunno.

But the canonical four.... no way they aren't a set. Nothing I've read arguing otherwise has changed my mind in the slightest. If the arguments were convincing, I'd be.. well, convinced. I'm open to changing my mind, as I have done with Stride/Tabram.

But they're not. Convincing, that is.

[J6123]

As to different killers for each Canonical, there really isn't any need to go that far. We have ample evidence that the first 2 women were almost certainly killed by the same person. The same victimology, methodology, signature actions and skill and knowledge is present. The only other Canonical who fits most of those categories might be Kate, but I cant believe someone as skilled with a knife as the killer of the first 2 would suddenly lose those abilities. A shorter time with the body might explain that though...maybe he rushed.

Cheers

What makes you think that the Killer of Polly Nichols was more 'skilled' than the killer of Kate Eddowes?

[Errata]

What makes you think that the Killer of Polly Nichols was more 'skilled' than the killer of Kate Eddowes?

It's funny because sometimes a lack of evident skill is actually a sign that familiarity does in fact breed contempt. I'm a much worse driver than I was when I first started, because now driving is so normal I do dumb things like read, change clothes, clean out the backseat, etc while driving. Care is not skill. But care affects skill.

[lynn cates]

Phillips

Hello J.

"What makes you think that the Killer of Polly Nichols was more 'skilled' than the killer of Kate Eddowes?"

George Bagster Phillips.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello J.

"What makes you think that the Killer of Polly Nichols was more 'skilled' than the killer of Kate Eddowes?"

George Bagster Phillips.

Cheers.
LC

Ill just add Lynn that the fact that Kates killer took precious time in a square that was patrolled several times within an hour to cut her colon and place some between the body and arm, cut around the navel and make the facial injuries, seem to indicate to me anyway that this killer wasn't satisfied with the extractions of any organ, partial or otherwise.

I don't see any indication in the murder of Annie Chapman that her killer left acts undone due to haste, but I do see in Kates case that he performed acts that compromised the time he would have to do extractions.

I forgot to mention the apron...he cut and tore the apron section as well.

Cheers