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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > White, Sergeant Stephen

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  #21  
Old 09-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Johnr Johnr is offline
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O.K. Norma,

So is Abberline saying Klosowski (Chapman) was glimpsed by a police constable in Mitre Square?


JOHN RUFFELS.
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  #22  
Old 09-12-2009, 11:51 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
I would be inclined ,since Abberline was the lead, hands on, detective in the Ripper investigation ,to rate Inspector Abberline"s word against Sims ,the journalist in this matter.
It's not really a question of rating Abberline's word against Sims's, because all Abberline is saying is that he thinks Chapman fits the descriptions given at the time - not, as Sims is, that a witness saw a suspect and said he matched the man he had seen (in some respects).

Surely the origin of Sims's statement is to be found in Macnaghten's statement about Kosminski (in the Aberconway draft): "This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

Regarding White, though, I do think it's worth bearing in mind what appears to be another report of the same incident from the East London Advertiser, posted by Rob above (http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...95&postcount=1), which definitely states "He saw no man anywhere". This suggests to me that - while there may be a grain of truth somewhere in the story - the claim that White actually saw the murderer is an embellishment.
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  #23  
Old 09-12-2009, 11:55 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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Certainly the man with glow worm eyes seems to have had no trace of a foreign accent.
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  #24  
Old 09-12-2009, 10:27 PM
Ben Ben is online now
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Quote:
THE HEIGHT,DEEP SUNK BLACK EYES,SALLOW COMPLEXION AND BLACK MOUSTACHE
I referred to the above "eyewitness description" on another Klosowski thread, and observed the following:

The trouble with Neil is that he was clearly working from a secondary source – Hargrave Adam – to make his case for Kloswoski. He even used a confused eyewitness description, presumably Adam’s, that bore no resemblance to anything that emerged from 1888, as one of most damning indications of supposed guilt. That’s not to poo-poo Klosowski’s candidacy in general, but it’s a bit of a worry that a case can be constructed on such shaky foundations.

There is no evidence of any comtemporary eyewitness describing anyone with sunken eyes or a sallow complexion, and there was certainly no mention of any Mitre Square-based police eyewitness in Swanson's compilation of witness descriptions.

Best regards,
Ben

Last edited by Ben : 09-12-2009 at 10:44 PM.
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  #25  
Old 09-12-2009, 11:33 PM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Ben,
Personally I think the "eye witness" he is referring to is George Hutchinson.Hutchinson gave a description that tallied reasonably well with this one Neil writes about .However,you are right there doesnt appear to have been a police witness in Swanson"s reports.

I dont consider the physical description of Hutchinson or any other description -including PC Smith"s in Berner Street- to hold the key to Chapman being the Ripper.Therefore I dont consider the case against Chapman to rest on a physical description.
Much more important to my mind is that the murders began in 1888,the year when at some point Chapman worked in George Yard and later having an address at 126 Cable Street.
Cheers Ben,
Norma
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  #26  
Old 09-13-2009, 12:21 AM
Ben Ben is online now
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Hi Norma,

Quote:
Personally I think the "eye witness" he is referring to is George Hutchinson.
I suspect you're right. What surprises me, though, is that both Hargrave Adam and Arthur Neil (or rather one echoing the other) misremembrered the details of that description to such a drastic extent, despite using it as one of the cornerstones of their "case" against Klosowski.

All the best,
Ben
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  #27  
Old 09-13-2009, 12:35 AM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Chris,
Yes,I see what you are saying here.One thing I always try to remember is that much of what was in the police files has vanished.On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.Also Macnaghten"s inclusion of "beat PC" appears to preclude White who was a detective sergeant and not a beat PC.
It really is a tough one this because the night Catherine Eddowes was murdered there were a number of police about around Aldgate,and these may well have included police such as Det. Sergeant White-who appear to have been engaged in the ongoing "surveillance monitoring" of Irish dynamitards and anarchists in Whitechapel , Aldgate and Mitre Square.In fact no less than Inspector Abberline had actually tracked and caught two Irish bomb makers in digs in MItre Square only three years before.
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  #28  
Old 09-13-2009, 12:47 AM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Hi Norma,



I suspect you're right. What surprises me, though, is that both Hargrave Adam and Arthur Neil (or rather one echoing the other) misremembrered the details of that description to such a drastic extent, despite using it as one of the cornerstones of their "case" against Klosowski.

All the best,
Ben
Yes,its as though they crammed in everything they thought would give extra credence to their "case" without ever paying much-if any- attention to detail.
N
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2009, 01:02 AM
Ben Ben is online now
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Hi Norma,

Quote:
On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.
More problematic is the total absence of any reference to a PC suspect sighting/description in Swanson's report on the witnesses with regard to the Mitre Square murder. Since this was an internal police document, the only valid explanation for such an absence is that there was never any suspect description to have originated from a PC at or near Mitre Square.

Best regards,
Ben
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  #30  
Old 09-13-2009, 01:09 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.Also Macnaghten"s inclusion of "beat PC" appears to preclude White who was a detective sergeant and not a beat PC.
Just to clarify - I wasn't trying to suggest either that there was really a City PC who saw the Ripper, or that White did so.

Just that Macnaghten's (apparently mistaken) belief that there was a City PC witness must have been the source of the statement by Sims that John quoted.
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