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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #461  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:42 AM
packers stem packers stem is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'd say that George Hutchinson comes pretty darned close to meeting those criteria, perhaps more so than Caroline Maxwell.
Thought we were talking about 'real' witnesses only ?
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  #462  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:53 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Thought we were talking about 'real' witnesses only ?
He was real enough - whether his story was real is another matter. Taken at face value, Hutchinson fits the ADVOKATE criteria very well.
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  #463  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:01 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
He was real enough - whether his story was real is another matter. Taken at face value, Hutchinson fits the ADVOKATE criteria very well.
ADVOKATE?

Sounds familiar.

Monty
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  #464  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:12 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I would suggest the time of death of Stride is a very contentious issue. as is the identification by Brown who it is suggested was the last person to see Stride alive at about 12,45am. If you regard his evidence as being unreliable which I do then it opens up a whole new can of worms as to when she was killed.

We have no evidence to tell us how busy Berner Street was at that time of the morning, how many males and females were moving about, how many people were loitering around the Chandlers shop, or in the vicinity of the club.

We have no idea as to how far away the couple were described by Brown, or what the lighting conditions were where he saw them, or how close he came to them.

[Coroner] Did you see enough to make you certain that the deceased was the woman? - I am almost certain.
[Coroner] Did you notice any flower in her dress? - No.

As is known Stride had a flower attached to her dress. so that may mean Brown was mistaken about who he actually saw.

As to the identification he made at the mortuary that again is unreliable. We know it was the practice that when bodies were taken to the mortuaries, they were stripped of all clothing. So did Brown make his identification of Stride simply by facial recognition if so that must be unreliable because he it would seem was never that close to her.

On a further note he cannot remember whether the man with this female was wearing a hat or not..

So realistically his evidence is totally unreliable.

Much of what I have stated above also refers to the Schwartz identification

Even today identification in criminal investigations and trials come under close scrutiny, and as a result of the case of R v Turnbull 1976, a number of guidelines were introduced and adopted to assist the courts and juries.

A mnemonic used to remember the various points is ADVOKATE:

Amount of time under observation: How long did the witness have the person/incident in view?

Distance: What was the distance between the witness and the person/incident?

Visibility: What was the visibility at the time? Factors include time of day/night, street lighting, etc.

Obstruction: Were there any obstructions to the view of the witness?

Known or seen before: Did the witness know, or had the witness ever seen, the person before? If so where and when?

Any reason to remember: Did the witness have any special reason for remembering the person/incident? Was there something specific that made the person/incident memorable?

Time lapse: How long has elapsed since the witness saw the person/incident?

Error discrepancy: Are there any errors or material discrepancies between descriptions in the first and subsequent accounts of the witness?

I know these guidelines were adopted for use in connection with the identification of modern-day offenders and suspects however; they can still safely be applied to the various witnesses and the description they give from 1888. Taking all that into account I would reiterate that in any event the various witness descriptions and timings are unsafe and should not be totally relied upon.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
I include the use of ADVOKATE in my book, also in relation to Hutchinson. Evidence shows the Victorian Bobby used this criteria, or rather a form of it.

An ANACAPA exercise could be useful, if complex. If anyone had the time and inclination it would result in the reduction of a lot of pointless speculation seen on this thread. And elsewhere for that matter.

Monty
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  #465  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:54 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
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And that!, in my view is what Swanson's opinion of Schwartz's evidence was intended for.

We have contentious arguments over the fact Swanson credits Schwartz as being reliable, yet the coroner did not call him for the inquest.
The two appear, on the surface to be contentious, but the value of Schwartz's evidence will be appreciated at a future trial. Whereas the more immediate inquest finds no real value in his evidence.

This I suspect is about as near a resolution for this conundrum we may ever get.
hi wick and bridewell
are you suggesting that the police intentionally kept him away from the inquest?

why?

how would that negatively affect or impede there use for him at trial?
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  #466  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:53 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
hi wick and bridewell
are you suggesting that the police intentionally kept him away from the inquest?

why?
Hi Abby.
The police do not decide who appears at the inquest.

Quote:
...how would that negatively affect or impede there use for him at trial?
I can't speak for Colin but, I did not mean there was any impact, it's the nature of what Schwartz saw.

His claim does not help the coroner in his duty to determine the 'who (she was)', the 'where', 'when' or 'how', the victim met her death.

What Schwartz saw may be better used at a future trail in establishing a timeline, and in the defense of an accused.
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  #467  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:59 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Swanson never credited Schwartz as 'being reliable.'
A Rose by any other name....

"...If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it, it follows that they are describing different men..."
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  #468  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:08 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Hi Abby.
The police do not decide who appears at the inquest.



I can't speak for Colin but, I did not mean there was any impact, it's the nature of what Schwartz saw.

His claim does not help the coroner in his duty to determine the 'who (she was)', the 'where', 'when' or 'how', the victim met her death.

What Schwartz saw may be better used at a future trail in establishing a timeline, and in the defense of an accused.
OK thanks wick
I thought you and Bridewell where saying the police were somehow responsible for him not being at the inquest because they thought it might be detrimental to any later trial.

but im sticking to my guns-he would have been important and should have been called to the inquest, especially considering the other types of witnesses who were called. He absolutely would have been pertinent as he can help establish TOD and the verdict.


why he wasn't called is another question. I remember Stewart Evans a while back mentioning he thought he knew why, but im not sure he ever gave his reason.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #469  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:35 AM
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Keep in mind that even if an interpreter had been available at the inquest there remains the basic problem that Schwartz, not being an English speaker, could not have given any evidence of what was being spoken between Liz and the B.S. man.

c.d.
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  #470  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:26 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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In the Coroners Acts 1887 & 1892 there was no duty cast upon an inquest to establish a time of death.

Just as well, really.
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