Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Periodicals: Upcoming Article - by TomTomKent 47 minutes ago.
Periodicals: Upcoming Article - by TomTomKent 57 minutes ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by NickB 2 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - by Darryl Kenyon 3 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - by Wickerman 4 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - by Wickerman 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - (8 posts)
Periodicals: Upcoming Article - (6 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Help On Some Details - (5 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Most accurate reconstruction (Graphic Warning) - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #371  
Old 01-05-2019, 03:46 PM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is online now
Detective
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 389
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Right, thats what she did say, about the loiterer (Hutch?).



Yes, but she is now talking about a couple on the same side as she is. For her to say "opposite", "across the street", or "on the other side", may understandably give the wrong impression.
The couple is further on, ahead of her.

The two red dots are Kelly & Astrachan (or Lewis's couple).
The blue dot is Hutchinson (or Lewis's loiterer).
The green dot is Lewis approaching Miller Court.

Okay so why doesn't she say further on down the street as i was walking along, or in front of me and they turned into the court.
Perhaps i should have added in my last post, Opposite from the man there was another man and woman, or, there was also a man and woman across the street from the man i saw, or, a man and a woman went in the passageway on the other side of the street from the man i saw.
Wick you say that she is now talking about a man and a woman on the same side as her, how do you know they where on the same side?
All i see in the various inquest testimony is further on or passing along.
If the couple did go into the court it would be of the upmost importance. Yet the point/question does not seem to be pursued.
Regards Darryl
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #372  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:13 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Delight View Post
Of course it was hence he was interrogated about it by Abberline. Thst is where I stand on it. His behaviour was suspicious and creepy but Abberline I am sure felt that way too but was sufficently happy with his answers that he not only believed him but had other detectives accompany him to try and find the man again. I back Abberlines judgement.
Hi sunny
99 times out of 100 i would too. But not this time.
I think wishful thinking and a good liar got the best of him on this one.

To me its rather obvious that after initially beleiving hutch he probably soon came to question his credibility.

Theres the story soon after in the press of his story being discounted.
Abberline never mentions him again, and when he does mention suspects and witnesses he opts for those who go with peaked cap man.
No mention of this should have been stellar witness again except from dew...who says he thinks he may have got the day wrong.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #373  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:55 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
If you think it's impossible, maybe your scale is wrong, you need to try again
Nope the scale is fine and based on average male height for the time .In fact I've been most generous
Kelly was no orangutan lol
__________________
You can lead a horse to water.....
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #374  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:59 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,085
Default

At the point in time that Kelly was alleged to be at the entrance to the court with her red handkerchief waving ' come mug me' guy .
Dear Hutchinson was at the corner of Commercial Street and Dorset Street ....nowhere near his dot
__________________
You can lead a horse to water.....
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #375  
Old 01-05-2019, 07:53 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Just a simple observation, that's all. A woman with nothing but historic/biographical info makes a statement to the police within a day or so of the news breaking, but an acquiaintance who tails a mysterious man - about whom he remembers a wealth of detail - and Kelly within hours of her murder doesn't come forward until the inquest is over. I don't think I'll ever stop finding that odd.
We don't know if he didn't make any inquiries in the street or in local pubs, or among the lodgers in the home where he stayed. We only hear of him going to the police station to make his statement.
Anyone interested in the murder is going to go to the scene of the crime. Maybe he did.

Like I've mentioned before though, on Friday the evening papers only published claims she was last seen alive after 9:00 Friday morning. and there were only four brief passages on this; one in the Globe, in the Echo, in the Star & the Evening News.
Coverage was spars.

Then on Saturday we find 39 paragraphs or sentences specifically aimed at estimating her time of death. These are found across 12 different daily & Evening newspapers on Saturday, by far the majority all repeat that same "seen alive as late as 9:00am" or thereabouts, Friday morning.
What reason would anyone have to go running to the police if you only spoke to her 7 hours before her assumed time of death?

I'm sorry Gareth, it seems to me you are trying to make what would have been sad news into some sort of emergency. It just wasn't.
He knew her, sure, but he had no idea about her death so many hours after he spoke with her.

It's only on the Sunday when the first reports are published that the police suspect she was murdered around 3:00am after the autopsy.
Interestingly, this is the day he says he approached a policeman to tell him what he knew.
It looks like the constable may have told him to go to the station, but he didn't, not until his lodger friend urged him to do so on the Monday.

It seems to me it's possible Hutch became aware of the theory that Cox had seen the murderer (as reported in the Star following the inquest). That to my mind is sufficient cause for him to go to the police. He knew the theory was wrong.

In this sequence of events I find nothing out of the ordinary, if it's reasonably accurate then no suspicion is warranted.

Quote:
Somehow, I don't think that "I'm Joe, the insane ex-boyfriend who used to beat Mary up" would go down well as an intro!
Well, that was more tongue in cheek than anything. It is a fact though, people who are friends of a victim do not always go running to police.

Remember Barnet's first inclination when he learned of the murder - he headed for Millers Court. Thats what people do, and that may be what Hutch did, but he is only going to learn what was in the press, that she was last seen alive about 9:00 Friday morning.
He spoke to her at 2:00am, so why go to police?

It's easy to claim he should have been more concerned if he knew her, but the reality is going to police is not the first action, it is going to the scene.
We wouldn't know if he did that or not.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #376  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:06 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
Nope the scale is fine and based on average male height for the time .In fact I've been most generous
Kelly was no orangutan lol
I was just having fun Nick.

Bob Hinton built a full scale mock-up and physically tried it himself, he said it worked fine.

At the time, back in the early 90's, I worked in engineering. At work I created a 3D computer model of that window & door around a corner.
It worked fine.

Both Bob & I used the size of the typical house brick & the cement line in use in the 19th century, as base for the scale. If you enhance that photo it is possible to count exactly how many bricks for both the height & width of both the window & door.
It works Nick - trust me
Or, trust Bob, either way.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #377  
Old 01-05-2019, 09:09 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,651
Default

Hi Jon,

Still waiting for your first guess.

Regards,

Simon
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #378  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:02 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
At the point in time that Kelly was alleged to be at the entrance to the court with her red handkerchief waving ' come mug me' guy .
Dear Hutchinson was at the corner of Commercial Street and Dorset Street ....nowhere near his dot
Yes, I'm well familiar with this argument. Posters like to play one statement off against the other, his police statement against his press statement. They want to argue that one is right and the other is wrong. Or he told one story then contradicted it, or he told the truth in one but lied in the other.

What needs to be done is interpret what he said in both statements, he was only telling one story. So everything he said must be consistent in both stories.

To the police he told them that Astrachan & Kelly went into Dorset street, and he followed them (into Dorset street).
"They both went into Dorset Street I followed them."

To the press he said:
"......they walked across the road to Dorset-street. I followed them across, and stood at the corner of Dorset-street."

If he stayed at the corner, then he didn't follow them into Dorset street.
So he lied?
Rubbish, him stopping at the corner until they got a good distance away, then continued to follow them is quite consistent with both stories.

Thats what you would do, it's what I would do, or anyone. When they go around a corner you would rush to that corner and watch, then when they're a good distance down the street continue to follow them.
Thats what he did.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #379  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:38 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Jon,

Still waiting for your first guess.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon.

Guessing its origin is simple, but guessing what you think its origin is, is a little harder
I though you were just going to say, read my book.

The handwriting certainly matches Badham's, the four official signatures; Badham, Ellisdon, Arnold & Abberline all appear genuine.
I have no issue with Hutchinson's signature.
There's no real guessing involved, the evidence speaks for itself.

Hutchinson's statement is genuine.

Now, you want me to guess what you think it's origin is.
I wouldn't know where to begin.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #380  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:54 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 496
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Abberline also stated he believed Israel Schwartz, which makes him zero for 2 on picking witnesses that have Inquest value. Granted, that boat had sailed when Hutch waits 4 days to come forward to help with his "friends" murder investigation.
If the police dismissed Schwartz, why is Donald Swanson still discussing him as a valid witness in a report dated October 19th?

Last edited by rjpalmer : 01-05-2019 at 10:56 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.