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Originally posted by DVV
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...you forgot "Hutching". Depends on who got to each murder scene first
Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888) -
Hello Sam,
Believe it or not, I was thinking of you when I called to a "more rational-minded person than I"!
Then you came and add some fun...
Nice ruff time for me!Comment
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Joking apart, the recent and extensive discussions about Hutch had become quite muddled and confusing, and I don't think that a possible idendification of Hutch and Fleming will add to the confusion.
Quite the reverse.
Amitiés,
DavidComment
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Living in Whitechapel and having had a consistent relationship with Kelly, Fleming had some reasons to go to a police station and make a statement there.
First, this would have cleared him from any possible suspicion.
And had he nothing to do with the murder, he could at least provide interesting information about Mary's past and background (indeed, press reports in november dealt with that).
He could also hope to gain some money from newspapers.
But he kept hidden, so to say (given the fact that the police may have more or less tried to trace him).
At best, this guy disliked publicity very much.
At worst, he had something to hide...or had already come forward under the alias of Hutchinson.Comment
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Hi All,
I dont think he would have gone to the police if Mary was his ex girl friend and she was murdered nearby and he had been over to her place fighting with her.I reckon he would have kept well away as anybody in such a situation may have done---out of fear of being arrested,fitted up, found guilty and hanged.
He doesnt necessarily come across so far as definitely being "violent".We know Mary herself could be pretty violent when in her cups,smashing windows etc.All we hear of Fleming is through a friend of Mary allegedly being told by Mary, that a man she had once been very fond of had "ill-used"--- her.She didnt say he had hit her.Perhaps he had ill-"used" her---by acting as her pimp at some time,had taken her money,whatever-that would also be "ill-using".
But I think Joe Fleming is a curious character,changing his name,entering the loony bin etc.We could certainly do with knowing more about him thats for sure.
NormaComment
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Hello Norma,
though it's difficult to prove it, the way he may have "ill-used" Mary is likely to have something to do with violence. And a certain capability for violence towards women is almost inevitably part of a pimp's outfit (sorry for this awful English!).
The fact that he moved to Whitechapel in August 1888 is not to be forgotten.
And not only he entered the loony bin, but he died in an asylum.
Indeed, it was only one year after the JtR murders that he started his "lunatic career" and was regularly admitted and discharged in various institutions.
So I agree that he looks a curious character...not to say more.
Amitiés,
DavidComment
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"Ill-using" means to treat someone with cruelty, and the word was used by the police - if I recall correctly - in connection with Schwartz's evidence, to describe what "Broadshouldered Man" was said to have done to Liz Stride. It's worth noting that, in the context of Kelly, "Joe" is said to have "ill-used" her because she was living with Joe Barnett. Somehow I don't think that this amounted to calling her names.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)Comment
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The verb is also widely associated with Pizer, famous for "ill using" the unfortunates.
Interestingly, Swanson writes:
"Leather Apron who it appeared have been levying blackmail and ill using them [the whores]"
That certainly means that he was said to use violence/cruelty to "levy blackmail".
Amitiés,
DavidComment
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Hi David and Sam,
First off Sam,I wasnt talking about him "calling her names" ,but possibly,if her pimp, taking her earnings.
Anyway,what I seem to remember here is that not long before she died she was believed to have gone back to the Breezers Hill lodgings with a man thought to have been Joe,both of them arriving at 2am.I cant remember at this moment where I got this from but someone like Mrs Phoenix,who had once known her well was said to have reported it I think!
I dont actually think it does sound like Joe Fleming was her pimp,because whats been forgotten or glossed over here is that Mary was reported to have been very fond of Joe and he of her,so much so that -Mrs Phoenix[?]believed he would gladly have married her.
Moreover, Mary was already suffering the effects of her excessive alcohol intake when "asked to leave " Breezers Hill,as well as moonlighting from Paternoster Row,both landlords having found her behaviour intolerable.So I doubt very much Joe was much different and that he also probably found her pretty unmanageable "when in drink"---thats no excuse for him to have hit her though---if he did, ----but Mary"s word in all this may not be completely reliable.
Salut David!
NormaComment
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Hi Norma,
If he was just fighting with her, yes.I dont think he would have gone to the police if Mary was his ex girl friend and she was murdered nearby and he had been over to her place fighting with her.
Anyone who ill-uses someone just for living with someone else is certainly a violent character, and we know from other sources that "ill-use" was Victorian terminology for physical violence. We only have to study the W.H. Bury case for proof of that. Ellen's sister pleaded with Bury not to "ill use the poor girl" after he pelted his wife with such force that blood was spattered on the wall.
All the best,
BenComment
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Ben,Originally posted by Ben View Post
We have no evidence that Joe Fleming "ill-used" Mary-quite the opposite from some others who had known them.That Mary may have chosen to say this to Julia Ventury is not proof that he actually did.We have reports that Mary herself could be violent,she was reported by her landlord and others to have smashed windows etc.and she is also reported to have been pretty wild and threatening when others on the game tried to move onto her patch-its all conjecture about Joe,-he had been her boyfriend.He became mentally ill some years later.Thats all we really know.For all we know Mary had been duffing him up regularly-she was the same height as him and pretty well built from all accounts!
Comment
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Hello Norma,
the very fact that Mary could be violent tends to confirm her statement that Fleming had "ill used" her, no?
There would be nothing extraordinary between a drinking prostitute and a jealous lunatic...
Amitiés,
DavidComment
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except David,that we dont know he was a jealous lunatic!Mary might have given him up because he was cold or introverted or more interested in the stars than Mary!Originally posted by DVV View PostComment
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Norma,
Yes, we do. We have Julia Venturney stating that he "ill-used" her for living with Barnett. That's where the phrase "ill-used" derived from in this situation. That's the evidence. It doesn't constitute proof, but it irrefutably constitutes evidence. We have no reports of Kelly being violent to the extent that she was physically abusive to others. Whatever rumous circulated about Kelly defending her patch, you won't find any mention of them in any police statement, and yet "ill-use" on the part of Fleming was specifically mentioned by Venturney in her police statement.We have no evidence that Joe Fleming "ill-used" Mary-quite the opposite from some others who had known them
Best regards,
BenComment
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Maybe his mental illness was latent in 1888, however, he is known to have given money to Mary (when she was already with Barnett), and also to have "ill used" her.Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
Quite clearly, these contradictory behaviours indicate a jealous lover, if not an obsession about Mary.
And the fact that he shifted to Whitechapel around Aug may then well has something to do with Mary.
Amitiés,
David
ps: have to apologies for a previous post stating that Fleming entered a Lunatic Asylum as early as november 1889.
This was an Infirmary, due to an injured leg.
My mistake.Comment
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