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Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - by Fisherman 12 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by DJA 13 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - by Herlock Sholmes 13 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - by Herlock Sholmes 20 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - by Herlock Sholmes 2 hours ago.

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Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - (37 posts)
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Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - (5 posts)
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #21  
Old 11-07-2016, 10:50 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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I believe that Lechmere was Cross when he found the body.
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2016, 11:02 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
I believe that Lechmere was Cross when he found the body.
Itīs nothing to be cross about - it happens.

Nah, just pulling your leg. However, it matters not who he was and to what degree he spent the evening bouncing like a ping-pong ball between identities.
What matters is that he had a couple of days before he made his mind up and went to the authorities - and every time he spoke to the authoritites, he was Lechmere, not Cross.

So regardless of how much and how often he was Cross (a totally unsubstantiated suggestion, by the way), he was ALWAYS Lechmere when he contacted or was contacted by the authorities (a totally substantiated suggestion, by the way).

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-07-2016 at 11:31 AM.
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2016, 04:22 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Yup. This ain't scientific (for I am neither scientist nor historian) but a very quick search on the Newspaper Archive found 21 relevant references to Cross and 0 for Lechmere. Obviously you knew that. However, Cross wins 21 v nil.
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  #24  
Old 11-08-2016, 05:01 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
Yup. This ain't scientific (for I am neither scientist nor historian) but a very quick search on the Newspaper Archive found 21 relevant references to Cross and 0 for Lechmere. Obviously you knew that. However, Cross wins 21 v nil.
What a turn up for the books.
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  #25  
Old 11-08-2016, 01:38 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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I can see you're impressed.
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  #26  
Old 02-13-2017, 11:25 PM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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Default Fisherman is right.

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Originally Posted by Henry Flower View Post
What a shame; I was really enjoying seeing the zero replies there, but somebody had to go and spoil it.

Pierre, given that you are a famous historian who has solved this case, given that you know who did it, and how it was covered up, why are you so obsessed with Fisherman and his Lechmere work? It should be absolutely irrelevant to you, and yet you seem strangely, bitterly obsessed. Wouldn't your time be better spent hunting down that final smidgeon of evidence for which you've spent over a year unsuccessfully scouring "the archives"?

At least Fisherman has the integrity to put his cards on the table, unlike you, you hypocrite.
Well said Henry Flower.
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  #27  
Old 03-17-2018, 11:48 AM
hill806 hill806 is offline
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Just out of curiosity, if Lechmere was the ripper, and he was on his way to work, what did he do with the organs that he took? (Not including Nichols as I know she didn't have any removed as far as im aware.) Did he shove them in a coat pocket till the end of the day? Im no expert, just genuinely just interested.
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  #28  
Old 03-18-2018, 01:27 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Just out of curiosity, if Lechmere was the ripper, and he was on his way to work, what did he do with the organs that he took? (Not including Nichols as I know she didn't have any removed as far as im aware.) Did he shove them in a coat pocket till the end of the day? Im no expert, just genuinely just interested.
Excellent point, hill806. Maybe Nichols was the only one actually killed on Lechmere's way to work, and it was good for him that he hadn't got around to extracting organs yet when he was supposedly interuppted.

For the record, I don't agree with the Lechmerians, because of these and other excellent questions.
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  #29  
Old 08-10-2018, 01:17 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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If, for the sake of argument, we nominate Lechmere as Jack The Ripper and we have him kneeling next to the body of Mary Ann Nichols in the early hours of August 31st, as soon as he hears footsteps approaching along Buck’s Row what would have been the first thought that entered his mind? Flee? Stay? Something else? I’d suggest that one word (although there are variations of it) above all would have been the one to surface and that word would have been ‘policeman!’ Of course it might have been a variant like ‘copper’ but I still think that this would have been his first thought. Had he been committing the same crime today I’d say that he’d simply be thinking ‘someone’s coming’ living as we do in a country where the Bobby-on-the-beat is a thing of the past. Not the case in Victorian London though. Bobbies were an ever present and familiar sight. So I’ll repeat that I think that it’s entirely reasonable and overwhelmingly likely that Lechmere the Ripper would have been primarily concerned that a policeman was approaching in the dark.
He then makes the decision, not to walk away or even run, but to stand and wait for the figure (who might have been a Police Officer) to arrive. This would have taken no great level of analysis by Lechmere as he would have been immediately aware of the consequences of coming face to face with the law in that position. Remember that we are assuming a guilty Lechmere. He’s just killed and mutilated a woman in the dark. No matter how ‘careful’ he’d tried to be he’d have had to have been aware of the possibility that he may have gotten some blood on him. Now if it was on his hand or sleeve he could have argued that he’d been contaminated whilst checking for signs of life. But how could he have explained away a speck of blood in his hair or a speck on his face or on any other less explicable place? This in itself would have been a massive and needless risk. Then of course there’s the fact that he’d have been speaking to a Police Officer in possession of the murder weapon. There’s no way of showing that the killer wiped the knife so we’re left with either a bloody knife or one with at least traces of Polly’s blood on it. No knife was found in the area so we know that he didn’t dispose of it. When we assess the circumstances therefore it impossible not to conclude that Lechmere was taking a suicidal risk as a police officer, on checking the body and finding her throat cut would have detained and searched him. Game over.
Alternatively, after taking this suicidal risk, Lechmere finds that the footsteps belong to Robert Paul. What were the possible outcomes to this scenario. As Fisherman has pointed out in previous posts there was I’ll-feeling towards the police amongst certain locals and so Paul might have said ‘leave her mate. I’m off to work. Let the police deal with it.’ He ‘might’ have been this lucky but he still couldn’t have been anywhere near to being certain of that. Also as the murders progressed and feelings ran high, Paul might have become a little more public spirited and gone to the police later on. Either way Lechmere could not have banked on being ‘lucky.’ Paul might however have suggested going to look for a police officer which again places Lechmere in the position of having to face a police officer, possibly with some speck of blood on him and definitely in possession of the murder weapon still with Polly’s blood on it. Now even if we postulate that Lechmere, on the spot, decides that he can come up with a plan to get past the police ( The Mizen Scam for which there’s not a shred of evidence) he is still talking face to face with a police officer who would have been able to identify him later on which would have meant that he couldn’t hope to ‘disappear.’ Consequently he couldn’t have avoided scrutiny; he couldn’t have avoided being summoned to the inquest. Does this suggest a worried man?
Lechmere would have been on high alert after killing a woman in the street. The sound of footsteps in a fairly deserted street in the early hours would have immediately have made him think ‘police.’ Being confronted by a police officer would have almost certainly have led to the gallows. Being confronted by a fellow worker would have been at least likely to have led to a confrontation with the police with the same consequences.
The other alternative would have been, to as soon as he heard the footsteps from around 40 yards away in the dark, would have been to get out of there to almost guaranteed safety. He had a head start. The other person would have had to have first noticed the body on the dark. Then gone over to it and then checked it closely enough to realise that her throat had been cut. Would that person have been likely to chase a murderer through the darkened backstreets? Unlikely I’d say. He might have shouted to raise an alarm or walked off to find a police officer. Either way Lechmere is streets away. If it was a police officer then Lechmere still has the head start and the policeman’s first response would have been to raise the alarm. Any attending officers wouldn’t have connected Lechmere to that alarm if they passed him in the street and so would have paid little attention to him. He would also undoubtedly have made some effort to avoid them.
Choices don’t really come much simpler do they? Yet a guilty Lechmere chose to stay. Can anyone honestly think that this is likely? This isn’t a killer taking a risk for the buzz. This isn’t a killer being clever and showing that he can get out of any situation. This would have been a killer putting himself in a position where he would have been 90+% certain of putting his head very firmly in the noose. Almost a killer with suicidal intent. And yet this is a killer who evaded capture in the same police haunted streets. It’s also worth remembering that as the murders progressed not one single police officer said “what about that bloke that found the first body? Let’s have another look at him.” They suspected all manner of people. They interviewed many. But the man that found a body and was alone with it raised no level of suspicion. Not conclusive in itself of course but worth noting.
Does anything about this episode suggest a guilty Lechmere? I would strongly suggest not.
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Last edited by Herlock Sholmes : 08-10-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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  #30  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:39 AM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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Some very good points but, if letchmere decided that he should stand his ground, possibly because he thought there wasn't a chance of getting away if it was a Policeman, would it be reasonable to suggest that, in standing his ground, he was prepared to defend that ground. He was armed, it might have occurred to him that he had the advantage and, that killing the Policeman was his only option.
If he really thought it was a Copper, what would be the point in running?

As you say, there were plenty of Police on the beat in those days so, if a Policeman found the body, could possibly see or hear somebody (Letchmere) moving away from the body then, if he blew his whistle, Letchmere would have a hell of a time evading the various Coppers in that area.
I think that he may have realised someone was too close to avoid, if it's a Copper, he'll stand and see what happens, it might be a tired, fat or not so alert sort and, a quick thrust with the knife might sort him out, Likely he wouldn't be expecting it or, with his cumbersome uniform, lantern and so on, not fast enough to defend himself?
If it was a member of the public, he could take them on or see how it went which, is possibly what happened?
Don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that he might well "take on" a Copper, now, I'm not saying certain Coppers might be cowards but, the Mitre square murder has worried me, it seems almost impossible that he wasn't seen, we have a policeman who's patrol brings him from Duke st to just inside the square, ok, the light isn't good in the square, he walks to the end of the passage, stops, waves his light around sees nothing. What if he did see something, someone slashing at a body on the ground, knowing that Jack is a maniac, assuming it is him right there, the Copper thinks bugger this, she looks dead anyway, I'm not risking being slaughtered by that maniac, he can't blow his whistle because he'd alert Jack, which would mean either a confrontation or having to give chase. I just don't underdtand how Jack got away from that one, I suggest that he was prepared, when he had to, to stand his ground and, I think that in Bucks row, he decided it was too close to run so, he'll stand his ground, luckily for Paul, Letchmere saw no threat and bluffed his way out of it.
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