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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > General Victim Discussion

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  #21  
Old 10-27-2016, 10:52 PM
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The Grave Maurice The Grave Maurice is offline
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To get back to your question, Madam, I've read most of the books about JTR but I can't recall one that claims all of the victims weren't prostitutes.
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  #22  
Old 10-27-2016, 11:04 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
Prostitution was a massive social evil in the 19th century ranging from upmarket brothels catering to the aristocracy,all the way down to casual street prostitutes . The vast numbers of women and children drawn into prostitution either voluntarily or forcibly was due to rapid industralisation in the big cities, extreme poverty, lack of opportunity for women, plus any woman seduced or abandoned by a man would have no other choice unless she was lucky.There is no point in trying to whitewash the reality of their lives
There were many thousands of prostitutes in London, the figures vary. Prostitution as not illegal,but after the contagious diseases acts of the 1860s women could be picked up if suspected of being a prostitute, examined for VD and arrested.So arrest would label you a prostitute, Brothels were not illegal until after Stead in 1885.

The Ripper victims were Unfortunates' that is the extreme level of poverty, women of ,mainly no fixed abode, no sustainable work,often with alcohol or health problems, women who once may have decent lives but fallen into poverty due to circunstances. In this condition you do anything to survive including casual prostitution like our victims, that does not make them any less victims.They were not beggers, professional beggers or mendicants had to offer a service or get arrested, like selling matches, or shoelaces playing an instrument or road sweeping or having a disability. A woman on the streets would also be offering a service, anything from a blow job to full sex or she could go to the casual ward for the night.
Unpleasant as it was casual prostition had great advantages he you have nothing. A few drinks, a warm pub, company, money for a bed and a chance to blot out the misery of your life. A degree of freedom, chosing your own hours, no hard labour in a factory or The Workhouse.When their relationships with men broke down it was a temporary measure to survive. All the victims except for Mary Kelly had worked,in other jobs. Mary was the only one who seemed to have always worked as a prostitute or been supported by men and Liz had been a registered prostitute in Sweden but in London had run a coffee shop with Stride and worked as a cleaner.
I dont understand why casual prostitution is such an issue, their lives were bloody awful and they were strong women trying to keep body and soul together in a harsh world.

Miss Marple
An excellent post Miss Marple
Debs
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  #23  
Old 10-27-2016, 11:13 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Firstly,your detective skills cannot differentiate between Debra and myself.
Thanks, Dave. THis is all getting a bit silly now!Where are people getting this idea you are me from?! It's weird because we seem to have different views on a few things and I'd have imagined that anyone who knows me well enough to know my email address (which starts DJA and must be the source of the confusion) would have gotten some idea of my views by now, I've been around long enough.
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  #24  
Old 10-27-2016, 11:20 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
What I puzzle over is the MJK's death certificate lists her occupation as .prostitute, not sure who would put that on a loved one's death certificate
Barnett certainly wouldn't have, but as informant, I don't think coroner Macdonald would had such qualms, GUT. Macdonald would have taken the occupation of prostitute from the police paperwork.
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  #25  
Old 10-28-2016, 05:42 AM
MsWeatherwax MsWeatherwax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
The Ripper victims were Unfortunates' that is the extreme level of poverty, women of ,mainly no fixed abode, no sustainable work,often with alcohol or health problems, women who once may have decent lives but fallen into poverty due to circunstances. In this condition you do anything to survive including casual prostitution like our victims, that does not make them any less victims.They were not beggers, professional beggers or mendicants had to offer a service or get arrested, like selling matches, or shoelaces playing an instrument or road sweeping or having a disability. A woman on the streets would also be offering a service, anything from a blow job to full sex or she could go to the casual ward for the night.
Unpleasant as it was casual prostition had great advantages he you have nothing. A few drinks, a warm pub, company, money for a bed and a chance to blot out the misery of your life. A degree of freedom, chosing your own hours, no hard labour in a factory or The Workhouse.When their relationships with men broke down it was a temporary measure to survive. All the victims except for Mary Kelly had worked,in other jobs. Mary was the only one who seemed to have always worked as a prostitute or been supported by men and Liz had been a registered prostitute in Sweden but in London had run a coffee shop with Stride and worked as a cleaner.
I dont understand why casual prostitution is such an issue, their lives were bloody awful and they were strong women trying to keep body and soul together in a harsh world.

Miss Marple

.
Love, love, love this post.
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  #26  
Old 10-28-2016, 07:04 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
An excellent post Miss Marple
Debs
agree DJA

and not only that, I don't even think stride or Kelly was actively (or casually) prostituting the night of their deaths.



-JK about the DJA Debs, I know its you!; )
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  #27  
Old 10-28-2016, 07:53 AM
Andrea_P Andrea_P is offline
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I would like to know the name of the book as well as it sounds interesting, would really like to read more about the victims
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  #28  
Old 10-28-2016, 08:29 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Originally Posted by Madam Detective View Post
I seem to recall someone wrote a book at some point in the 20th century where the author argued that the victims weren't prostitutes. Does anyone know the name of this book or it's author?
I can't locate it, but I'm sure I read a newspaper article interview with a woman author who objected to the labeling of JTR's victims as prostitutes.

I did, however, find this dissertation on the subject of the Ripper victims and prostitution in the East end in 1888-1900. Certainly seems to be close to your topic, and may explain some things.

dalspace.library.dal.ca:8080/bitstream/handle/10222/57214/Crooks-Katherine-MA-HIST-June-2015.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y
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  #29  
Old 10-28-2016, 12:46 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Barnett certainly wouldn't have, but as informant, I don't think coroner Macdonald would had such qualms, GUT. Macdonald would have taken the occupation of prostitute from the police paperwork.
Debs
It's always bothered me.
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  #30  
Old 10-28-2016, 12:51 PM
Ozzy Ozzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
I dont understand why casual prostitution is such an issue

Great post.

Being a male I'm not in the best position to comment on this I think.
However...
In 2016 we can read about the bad living conditions but we don't know what it was like to actually live through it. What I do know that is true in 2016 as it was in 1888, for men and women, is that a person weighs up pros and cons and makes a decision.
Do you go into a workhouse for the night or go with a customer. The workhouse is dreadful but safe (for want of a better word). Anything could happen with a customer. From the ripper to, well anything. Maybe a remote chance of hitting it off with the customer and maybe getting married to him. That sort of thing was probably only what the youngest might of thought. But I'm just trying to say what these women, weighing up pros and cons, would/could of been thinking.
Because of the type of person I was, not so much these days where I tend to play it safe, I can well imagine that if I was an 1888 "unfortunate" I'd turn to prostitution, at least sometimes.

--Madam Detective - Your starting post about a book where the author argued that the victims weren't prostitutes? Was it the major selling point, so to speak, of the book? Or something the author, for example, mentioned in a paragraph or two?
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