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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > General Victim Discussion

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  #11  
Old 10-26-2016, 09:06 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Not all that long ago that most Drive in Movie Theaters in Australia would have legally been classified as brothels.
Never paid for it, 'crept the last 35 years or so.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2016, 10:01 AM
Madam Detective Madam Detective is offline
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Is it possible to steer this back on topic? I'm looking to see if anyone knows the title or author of this book - I didn't mean to turn this into a were they, weren't they thread. Personally, I think there are plenty of other reasons poor women would find themselves on the streets late at night, other than prostitution...like homelessness?
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2016, 10:39 AM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Doubt that any of the five were prostituting themselves at the time of their deaths.
At best,or worst,some of them may have made a bit on the side to get by during the very difficult circumstances they encountered.
Really just class snobbery and discrimination which suited the police and powers that were,as there was less sympathy for these women.
More likely to be begging.
Hi Deb, your assertion that you doubt that "any of the five were prostituting themselves at the time of their deaths" seems to fly in the face of the facts.

Didn't Polly Nichols say that she was going to make her bed money for the night?

Didn't Catherine Eddowes take the man into a corner of Mitre Square -- why would she do that if she were merely begging?
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2016, 12:35 PM
Madam Detective Madam Detective is offline
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Actually, Polly Nichols just said she had moved to a lodging house which wasn't a single sex one - that could mean anything - you have to read how many times it's been altered in reporting, the words change on many occasions. She also says she made her doss money several times over - doing what? Why do we infer it was in the line of prostituting herself. She could have easily begged that money or pawned things or borrowed it. The truth is all of this stuff is circumstantial. Polly Nichols has been in workhouses for most of the time prior to coming to Whitechapel,and also in employment working for the Cowdrys. She'd barely been in Whitechapel for a month before she was murdered. Why do we assume she was a prostitute?
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  #15  
Old 10-27-2016, 12:58 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Originally Posted by Madam Detective View Post
Actually, Polly Nichols just said she had moved to a lodging house which wasn't a single sex one - that could mean anything - you have to read how many times it's been altered in reporting, the words change on many occasions. She also says she made her doss money several times over - doing what? Why do we infer it was in the line of prostituting herself. She could have easily begged that money or pawned things or borrowed it. The truth is all of this stuff is circumstantial. Polly Nichols has been in workhouses for most of the time prior to coming to Whitechapel,and also in employment working for the Cowdrys. She'd barely been in Whitechapel for a month before she was murdered. Why do we assume she was a prostitute?
Her husband William had separated from her in the early 1880's because of her drunkenness. "In 1882, William found out that his wife was living as a prostitute and discontinued support payments to her."

Nichols' husband discontinued payments for her because she was prostituting herself. Yes she did sometimes find work but she was unlikely to find gainful employment in the middle of the night. The above about Polly and her husband as well as the following details are from the Victims section here on Casebook, http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.html

2:30 AM -- She meets Emily Holland, who was returning from watching the Shadwell Dry Dock fire, outside of a grocer's shop on the corner of Whitechapel Road and Osborn Street. Polly had come down Osborn Street. Holland describes her as "very drunk and staggered against the wall." Holland calls attention to the church clock striking 2:30. Polly tells Emily that she had had her doss money three times that day and had drunk it away. She says she will return to Flower and Dean Street where she could share a bed with a man after one more attempt to find trade. "I've had my doss money three times today and spent it." She says, "It won't be long before I'm back." The two women talk for seven or eight minutes. Polly leaves walking east down Whitechapel Road.

At the time, the services of a destitute prostitute like Polly Nichols could be had for 2 or 3 pence or a stale loaf of bread. 3 pence was the going rate as that was the price of a large glass of gin. [Emphasis mine]
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:02 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Originally Posted by Madam Detective View Post
Is it possible to steer this back on topic? I'm looking to see if anyone knows the title or author of this book - I didn't mean to turn this into a were they, weren't they thread. Personally, I think there are plenty of other reasons poor women would find themselves on the streets late at night, other than prostitution...like homelessness?
I've tried various google and amazon searches without luck in tracking this theory, sorry
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:08 PM
miss marple miss marple is offline
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Prostitution was a massive social evil in the 19th century ranging from upmarket brothels catering to the aristocracy,all the way down to casual street prostitutes . The vast numbers of women and children drawn into prostitution either voluntarily or forcibly was due to rapid industralisation in the big cities, extreme poverty, lack of opportunity for women, plus any woman seduced or abandoned by a man would have no other choice unless she was lucky.There is no point in trying to whitewash the reality of their lives
There were many thousands of prostitutes in London, the figures vary. Prostitution as not illegal,but after the contagious diseases acts of the 1860s women could be picked up if suspected of being a prostitute, examined for VD and arrested.So arrest would label you a prostitute, Brothels were not illegal until after Stead in 1885.

The Ripper victims were Unfortunates' that is the extreme level of poverty, women of ,mainly no fixed abode, no sustainable work,often with alcohol or health problems, women who once may have decent lives but fallen into poverty due to circunstances. In this condition you do anything to survive including casual prostitution like our victims, that does not make them any less victims.They were not beggers, professional beggers or mendicants had to offer a service or get arrested, like selling matches, or shoelaces playing an instrument or road sweeping or having a disability. A woman on the streets would also be offering a service, anything from a blow job to full sex or she could go to the casual ward for the night.
Unpleasant as it was casual prostition had great advantages he you have nothing. A few drinks, a warm pub, company, money for a bed and a chance to blot out the misery of your life. A degree of freedom, chosing your own hours, no hard labour in a factory or The Workhouse.When their relationships with men broke down it was a temporary measure to survive. All the victims except for Mary Kelly had worked,in other jobs. Mary was the only one who seemed to have always worked as a prostitute or been supported by men and Liz had been a registered prostitute in Sweden but in London had run a coffee shop with Stride and worked as a cleaner.
I dont understand why casual prostitution is such an issue, their lives were bloody awful and they were strong women trying to keep body and soul together in a harsh world.

Miss Marple























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Last edited by miss marple : 10-27-2016 at 02:11 PM. Reason: cut
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:20 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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A study of forty years of admittedly solved serial murders in the US seems to suggest an increasing proportion of female victims are prostitutes. How this can be extrapolated to 1880s Whitechapel is of course arguable

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ation_de tail
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  #19  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:58 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
Hi Deb, your assertion that you doubt that "any of the five were prostituting themselves at the time of their deaths" seems to fly in the face of the facts.

Didn't Polly Nichols say that she was going to make her bed money for the night?

Didn't Catherine Eddowes take the man into a corner of Mitre Square -- why would she do that if she were merely begging?
Firstly,your detective skills cannot differentiate between Debra and myself.

Yep,Polly was after doss money.

There is no evidence that Eddowes took Jack into Mitre Square.
Damn stupid place to be soliciting.
That area was crawling with cops.In fact many from Jewry Street,etc lived very close by.
In fact testimony given says that Catherine did not prostitute herself at all.

This somehow qualifies these two as prostitutes!
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  #20  
Old 10-27-2016, 07:36 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Originally Posted by Madam Detective View Post
Actually, Polly Nichols just said she had moved to a lodging house which wasn't a single sex one - that could mean anything -
She actually moved next door to Eddowes.
Immediately Eddowes left to go hopping,Polly was murdered.Not that far along Hanbury Street to where Chapman met her demise.
Eddowes may have also known the Ripper and seems to have returned seeking financial reward.
This case may not be about a psychotic killer stalking female prostitutes.

Meh. Getting off topic again
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