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  #81  
Old 01-02-2019, 11:13 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi All,

Does anyone know why Mrs Fielder, Matron and wife of the Master of Lambeth Workhouse, was unable to identify Polly Nichols?

Regards,

Simon
Simon,
Was she asked to?
Whats the source for it?

Have to be honest not something I even looked into.


Steve
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  #82  
Old 01-02-2019, 11:38 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Steve,

Morning Advertiser, 1st September 1888—

The deceased woman's clothing was of a common description, but the skirt of one petticoat bore the stencil stamp of Lambeth Workhouse. The only articles in the pockets were a comb and a piece of looking glass. The latter led the police to conclude that the murdered woman was an inhabitant of the numerous lodging houses of the neighbourhood, and officers were despatched to make inquiries while a messenger was sent to Lambeth to get the matron to view the body for the purpose of identification. The latter, however, could not identify the woman, and said that the clothing might have been issued any time during the past two or three years.

The story also appeared in Lloyds Weekly News, 2nd September 1888.

Regards,

Simon
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  #83  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:08 PM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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It could be that Ms Fielder didn't know by sight each and every one of the inmates at the workhouse, even though its said she arranged Polly's employment with the Cowdrys.

JM
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  #84  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:31 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Steve,

Morning Advertiser, 1st September 1888—

The deceased woman's clothing was of a common description, but the skirt of one petticoat bore the stencil stamp of Lambeth Workhouse. The only articles in the pockets were a comb and a piece of looking glass. The latter led the police to conclude that the murdered woman was an inhabitant of the numerous lodging houses of the neighbourhood, and officers were despatched to make inquiries while a messenger was sent to Lambeth to get the matron to view the body for the purpose of identification. The latter, however, could not identify the woman, and said that the clothing might have been issued any time during the past two or three years.

The story also appeared in Lloyds Weekly News, 2nd September 1888.

Regards,

Simon
Thanks for the source Simon,

Firstly it is a word pefect repeat in Lloyds of the Advertiser, so it's really only a single common source.

And these are early general press reporting, and should really not be treated the same as inquest reports in my estimation.

Indeed the early press reports are often garbled and incorrect, from talking of signs of a struggle and the clothing being torn or cut to the account in the East London Observer 1st Sept.
Which says Neil took the body to the mortuary with the aid of street scavengers.
For that particular report to be correct, it means that the vast majority of those giving evidence at the inquest lied, not just the police, but the neighbours, the doctor, the slaughter men and mulshaw. Totally unacceptable without any proof to back it up.

Papers get it wrong.

However let's look if there are any obvious reasons why this report would be carried.

Just because the article says Fielder attended the mortuary, it does not mean such actually occurred.

It could, and I stress could well be that she did not recognise Polly from a verbal description. We do know however Mary Ann Monk went from the workhouse and did identify her.

So maybe, and it is a maybe Fielder never actually went, but Monk did.

The inquest reports make no mention of her attending the mortuary.

We also know that she was identified because her father confirmed the ID, and attended the inquest on the Saturday, 1st. Monk appeared 3rd.
Helsons report of the 7th only says she was identified due to the label on her clothing, not who by, or any other details

I can see no reason why Fielder could not identify her, and suspect that she actually never attended the mortuary, Monk going in her stead.

I had forgotten the source, although it is included in the press section of my overdue book, because I had discounted the report and see no reason to change that view

This isn't a Nichols thread so perhaps could go elsewhere if you wish to continue, so we don't annoy people.

Happy new year by the way.

Steve
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  #85  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:33 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmenges View Post
It could be that Ms Fielder didn't know by sight each and every one of the inmates at the workhouse, even though its said she arranged Polly's employment with the Cowdrys.

JM
Very fair point Jonathan. Which of course explain why another inmate, Monk.ended up going and identifing her.


Steve
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  #86  
Old 01-03-2019, 06:10 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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The Mary Ann Nichols on the 1861 census mentioned by HR was living with a ‘scavenger’ named George Crawshaw in Wellington Road, Islington.

Crawshaw seems to have spent his entire life in Islington, being born there in 1841 and dying there in 1907.

You have to ask yourself how Polly, based in Lambeth, south London, might have hooked up with a scavenger (rubbish collector/street cleaner) living in Islington, north London.

Not impossible, but it’s one thing that makes me question whether it is ‘our’ Mary Ann Nichols.

I also question whether someone born in a Court off Shoe Lane and Christened at St Bride’s would give Finsbury as her place of birth.
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  #87  
Old 01-03-2019, 07:08 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
The Mary Ann Nichols on the 1861 census mentioned by HR was living with a ‘scavenger’ named George Crawshaw in Wellington Road, Islington.

Crawshaw seems to have spent his entire life in Islington, being born there in 1841 and dying there in 1907.

You have to ask yourself how Polly, based in Lambeth, south London, might have hooked up with a scavenger (rubbish collector/street cleaner) living in Islington, north London.

Not impossible, but it’s one thing that makes me question whether it is ‘our’ Mary Ann Nichols.

I also question whether someone born in a Court off Shoe Lane and Christened at St Bride’s would give Finsbury as her place of birth.
The birthplace on that one was a problem for me too, Gary. I did notice a woman giving her birthplace as Clerkenwell in other census entries and wondered if that was the 1881 MA Nichols picked up HR. I haven't gone in to any detail looking at it though. There's also the question of whether she is the same MA Nichols using the Newington casual ward regularly in the late 70s and early 80s that I mentioned before. That establishment is close to her old home I gather? If those are correct then a move to Islington would seem odd to me.
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  #88  
Old 01-03-2019, 07:28 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
The birthplace on that one was a problem for me too, Gary. I did notice a woman giving her birthplace as Clerkenwell in other census entries and wondered if that was the 1881 MA Nichols picked up HR. I haven't gone in to any detail looking at it though. There's also the question of whether she is the same MA Nichols using the Newington casual ward regularly in the late 70s and early 80s that I mentioned before. That establishment is close to her old home I gather? If those are correct then a move to Islington would seem odd to me.
And even more unlikely that William Nichols would had someone spying on her on the other side of London, I’d have thought.

In fairness to HR, she admits she isn’t sure that this woman is Polly.
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