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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #21  
Old 11-15-2016, 08:39 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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The known data from the Stride investigation suggests that Liz was unaware she was in danger until the moment she had her scarf grabbed and tightened, and it also suggests she may have been cut before she hits the ground.

All the evidence suggests she was in the passageway when her attacker Blitz Krieged her, why she was there is not indicated within the known data. Its unlikely it was to solicit a club for customers that had an hour earlier let almost all of its occupants out. It was deserted on the street.
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  #22  
Old 11-15-2016, 08:41 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Here is a less cluttered map showing the yard. Also slightly later, 1894 I think - it seems the wooden print room had been removed by then. Even so, it doesn't look like there's any access to the end of the yard except into, through or possibly over commercial buildings.


http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1
Cheers again!

Looking at these maps I've become a bit less swayed by the idea of there being all these sexy courts and passageways. Still trying to reconcile the Pall Mall Gazette account with these maps.
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  #23  
Old 11-15-2016, 09:02 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
not bad.
I think the night of the double event went more like this
"Snip*
Bam!
Yeah! That sounds very interesting and puts some more meat on the bones of the scenario of how the killer might have encountered Stride and why it might have turned at the place where it did.

I'm extremely reluctant to attach too much weight to the GSG myself in any reckonings of the case, because it's very open to interpretation of what the message was and how linked it actually is. BUT I would say that your interpretation and use of it is much better than many other interpretations I've read before.

My personal take on it is that it's an angry cockney saying that the Jews well not acknowledge responsibility or blame where due. So a pissed off local complaining about a shopping experience is my best guess right now. But I could be miles off or comically out of date in my thinking there
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  #24  
Old 11-15-2016, 09:28 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Heres an idea that Ive floated here with little traction gained, but I believe it makes more sense than many guesses and it uses the evidence...Kates killer was aware that Socialist Jews were denying anything to do with Liz's murder and trying to pass the blame on the "mad" killer at large....."another woman has been killed" was yelled by the club members. It ticked him off...maybe an anti Semite, so he decides to drop the apron carrying the organs from Mitre Square right outside a major concentration of Jewish Immigrants at the Model Homes and writes a message suggesting the Jews will not accept blame for anything.

The senior investigators saw it as inflammatory towards Jews in a primarily Jewish neighborhood, so why are we discussing a message interpretation that is supportive of Jews.
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  #25  
Old 11-15-2016, 12:12 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by StevenOwl View Post
I find it hard to believe that a killer so calm and collected on at least 4 other occasions as to almost be considered phantom-like, would be so reckless in his public pursuit and murder of Stride.
Hi owl
I agree. But he was human, not a phantom. not a robot. his temper simply got the best of him this time.
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2016, 12:15 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Daniels View Post
Yeah! That sounds very interesting and puts some more meat on the bones of the scenario of how the killer might have encountered Stride and why it might have turned at the place where it did.

I'm extremely reluctant to attach too much weight to the GSG myself in any reckonings of the case, because it's very open to interpretation of what the message was and how linked it actually is. BUT I would say that your interpretation and use of it is much better than many other interpretations I've read before.

My personal take on it is that it's an angry cockney saying that the Jews well not acknowledge responsibility or blame where due. So a pissed off local complaining about a shopping experience is my best guess right now. But I could be miles off or comically out of date in my thinking there
thanks Charles
you could very well be right. I just see it the other way. it all ties together.
the reluctance of Stride, pissed off broad shouldered man, being spotted by jews, the peaked cap, the wording of the GSG.etc.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #27  
Old 11-15-2016, 04:44 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"The senior investigators saw it as inflammatory towards Jews in a primarily Jewish neighborhood, so why are we discussing a message interpretation that is supportive of Jews."

Hello Michael,

The answer would be because unless the senior investigators wrote it themselves they are only guessing at its meaning just like us. Also because the wording can be interpreted as pro-Jewish and it is human nature to fire back when an individual or group is insulted.

c.d.
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  #28  
Old 11-15-2016, 04:48 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Its unlikely it was to solicit a club for customers that had an hour earlier let almost all of its occupants out. It was deserted on the street."

Hello Michael,

Exactly how many customers would she be planning on servicing? I would think one or two would suffice so a full club was not necessary.

c.d.
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2016, 04:52 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi owl
I agree. But he was human, not a phantom. not a robot. his temper simply got the best of him this time.
Hello Abby,

This is certainly possible but if so he let his temper override common sense since he had already been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. If he simply walked away at that point all he is guilty of is pushing a woman to the ground. Hardly a capital offense and one that could easily be explained away if need be.

c.d.
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  #30  
Old 11-15-2016, 11:25 PM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenOwl View Post
I find it hard to believe that a killer so calm and collected on at least 4 other occasions as to almost be considered phantom-like, would be so reckless in his public pursuit and murder of Stride.
Well there's definitely something odd going on with Stride.
The thing is I have to accept that something went rather strangely with Stride -

Because we know that after the crime, the killer left the scene.

If we assume the killer could walk in any direction, and treat all potential directions as equally likely -- then I have to notice that if he happened to walk in the direction of Bishopsgate, he will have arrived at exactly the same time Eddowes would be walking in that area. Looking at maps of the area and timings, the only conclusion I can arrive at personally is that we have a continuation of violence from the same killer.

This also gives us an interesting bonus, in that we can extend our tracking of the murderers movements from Dutfield's Yard, to Mitre Square, to Goulston Street. Since we don't have a third murder, that seems to suggest the killer was going somewhere safe for them, and indicates the vague direction where that safety would be.

From my personal viewpoint, the Stride case is very interesting because we have the killer going off script as it were. Something isn't quite the same here.
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