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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #1  
Old 03-06-2015, 07:53 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default Timing between Eddowes and Stride is bang on

The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am
Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking east, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked east there is a chance he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her. Again a matter of minutes.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

The alternative, that they are not the same killer, has to explain the above without recourse to coincidence. If they want to play the coincidence card here, then likely they have a deck of these, because they will be playing coincidence AGAIN shortly after when it comes to the Goulston Street graffiti.

Synchronicity wins out over coincidence.

The investigators understood this at the time.
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Last edited by Batman : 03-06-2015 at 07:56 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-06-2015, 09:15 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am
Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking east, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked east there is a chance he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her. Again a matter of minutes.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

The alternative, that they are not the same killer, has to explain the above without recourse to coincidence. If they want to play the coincidence card here, then likely they have a deck of these, because they will be playing coincidence AGAIN shortly after when it comes to the Goulston Street graffiti.

Synchronicity wins out over coincidence.

The investigators understood this at the time.
yup. And add to that the church street sighting in between of peaked cap man whos seen by several witnesses with stride and by Lawende with Eddowes and its all pretty much of a no brainer.

one of the few things in this case that is-or should be at least.
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  #3  
Old 03-06-2015, 09:42 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am
Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking east, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked east there is a chance he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her. Again a matter of minutes.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

The alternative, that they are not the same killer, has to explain the above without recourse to coincidence. If they want to play the coincidence card here, then likely they have a deck of these, because they will be playing coincidence AGAIN shortly after when it comes to the Goulston Street graffiti.

Synchronicity wins out over coincidence.

The investigators understood this at the time.
The times of death are only estimated and not to be totally reliable as being correct. Same as the doctors trying to say the killer was left handed or right handed, guesswork

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  #4  
Old 03-06-2015, 10:11 AM
El White Chap El White Chap is offline
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This is undoubtedly an argument with considerable strength to it. The timeline seems to be at the very least convincing and more than relatively precise. To add further substance, the sightings of the peaked cap man with both Liz and Kate reinforces this notion of events.

Thank you Batman and Abby, my suspicions that Stride was killed by the same hand weren't so solid before today. In fact I've often doubted it (as do plenty of others on these boards) for many reasons given by other credible posters here.

Following this thread I'm now more certain than I've ever been that the 'Double Event' was indeed just that.

Until I see some other 'evidence' to the contrary I'm now swayed to believe Stride was killed by the same man as Eddowes, Chapman, Polly and probably Kelly too.

The other victims in the Whitechapel Murders case file are still up for debate in contention with those mentioned above. There are some similarities and symmetries there also.
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  #5  
Old 03-06-2015, 01:49 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take.
What if you're a staggering drunk, like BS-man was described as, how long would it take now?

Otherwise, apart from getting your east-west mixed up the idea is sound enough.


Quote:
The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.
Do you regard the throat cuts to Coles & McKenzie as similar to Stride?
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Old 03-06-2015, 01:52 PM
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Your right its west.
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Old 03-06-2015, 02:06 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Do you regard the throat cuts to Coles & McKenzie as similar to Stride?
In the case of Coles she was killed with a blunt knife which is unlike JtR who would have kept his blade sharp and treasured in a way. Since it was blunt, even though there were 3 attempts made, it was a cut throat, as opposed to a neck slash/partial decaputation.

McKenzie's wounds are shallow/scratches, even the mutilations. Her neck was stabbed at.

For someone who had 10 weeks of near decaputations and stripping one victim to the bone, these both seem even lower on the scale of mutilation than Nichols or even Stride.

The answer is maybe, but then one needs an explanation for why the lesser degree of neck wounds and mutilation.

If both of these are victims are the same JtR then the killer may been put away for something else between those periods or non-activity. I thought about Kozminski being in and out of an asylum one time, explaining how the murders aren't as frenzied, but I think he was inside for McKenzie by a few weeks.

The bottom line is this. The C5 are just the one's we know are by JtR. It is more than likely that he committed many more crimes, accousted many more women and hurt many more people, but it either went unreported, or lost in the mountain of reports.

I don't want to turn this thread into a McKenzie/Coles one though if possible. I just want to stick with the Eddowes/Stride timing. Would be happy to address them on their respective forums.
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Old 03-06-2015, 02:18 PM
John G John G is offline
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Hi Batman,
In relation to Stride's wound do you think it significant that a small-bladed knife appears to have been used? In other words, wouldn't a significant amount of force be required to create such a wound with a smaller-bladed knife?
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Old 03-06-2015, 02:32 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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For what its worth, I suspect the man who attacked Stride (BS-man), could have been the man seen with her at 11:45 by William Marshall.
The descriptions are close.

Described by Marshall:
"...man was wearing a black short coat and dark trousers. He seemed to be middle aged, and was wearing a round cap with a small peak, something like what a sailor would wear. He was about 5ft. 6in. in height, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He did not look like a dock labourer nor a butcher, but had more the appearance of a clerk."

Described by Swanson (source: Schwartz)
"...age about 30, ht. 5ft 5in. Comp. Fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak,.."

Described by Star reporter (source: Schwartz)
"...about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat."

Though I don't think this man was her killer.
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Old 03-06-2015, 02:54 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El White Chap View Post

Following this thread I'm now more certain than I've ever been that the 'Double Event' was indeed just that.

Until I see some other 'evidence' to the contrary I'm now swayed to believe Stride was killed by the same man as Eddowes, Chapman, Polly and probably Kelly too.
I can't help feeling that Lawende's lack of confidence about recognizing the man, and the fact he did not see Eddowes face, only seeing her from the rear, means the couple seen in Duke St. may not have been Eddowes with her killer after all.
Lawende & Levy appear to be certain about the time, ie; 1:34 am. Then Watkins finds her body at 1:44 am.
The distance down Church Passage from Duke St. to the murder corner in Mitre Sq. plus the time it would take to do the mutilations I suspect span longer than 10 minutes.
It is just too tight.
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