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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #731  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:23 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
That's not really true though is it.
It might be true if Blotchy was the killer, Cox saw him enter the room with Kelly, so to then go on and murder Kelly would be risky.
It might also apply if Astrachan had been the killer, having been stared in the face like he was, then go on to murder the woman he was seen with.
Somehow I doubt you believe in either of those scenario's.

From what we have no-one saw this killer enter the room with Kelly. So, where was the risk, beyond someone knocking at her door in the middle of the night? Which is quite easy to avoid - just stay quiet & still.



It was his choice to move indoors. Unless you think someone shoved him in there and threw him a knife.
As it was his choice, then he cannot have believed what he did was more risky.
In fact it might be argued to have been less risky. Contemporary opinions in the press on that issue are divided.




First we are presented with arguments suggesting the more likely, obvious, or common reason's for Hutchinson doing what he did. Now you resort to special pleading, offering an example that rarely ever happens.
Which are we supposed to believe?

Did Hutchinson do what any liar or criminal would do, or - did he do what is very rare for a criminal to do?
Can you guy's get your heads together to come up with something consistent?
LOL! you do realize that people that argue from the opposite side may have different ideas?
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"Is all that we see or seem
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #732  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:29 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post

The ripper killed victims before when he had been seen with them(I admit not as well as hutch). He went on to kill Stride even after being seen attacking her by a witness.
Only if we assume BS-man was her killer. Swanson wasn't so sure.


Quote:
Just off the top of my head Dahmer went on to kill the young boy even after the boy escaped naked in the street and had the cops stop and question with Dahmer present!
Was the boy's body found in Dahmer's room, tying the boy to Dahmer and the last time they were seen together?
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  #733  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:32 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
What do you think they'd be talking about on the day of an 'orrible murder in Miller's Court?
Lets not sidestep the issue

Your argument requires the gossip to be of the 'cry of murder', or anything suggesting an early time of death.
As nothing was in the press on that Friday indicating this, then where does this gossip come from?
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  #734  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:37 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I believe wick is trying to say the only way news of her murder could have gotten out to the public is through the press!
Once again, you are two steps behind.
Gareth's point is the public would be gossiping about an early time of death on Friday, in part due to the rumored 'cry of murder'.
On what evidence?

No suggestion of a cry of murder in the Friday evening press.
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  #735  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:39 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by caz View Post
I wish I'd written that.

Love,

Caz
X
Indeed Caz, RJ has got their number already
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  #736  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:47 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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I presume you've all stopped to consider the red handkerchief at some point .... the colour of which couldn't possibly be seen from the corner of Commercial/Dorset Streets due to distance and lighting , the sighting attributed to Lawende (although it had already appeared in the press on Oct 2nd, well before Lawende gave evidence ) of a red neckerchief ..... despite there being no lamp near that end of Church Passage .... and as for a salt and pepper coloured jacket ? Well ,least said the better .
As we can very safely assume the 'red' could not be seen from Hutchinson's proclaimed vantage point then it was clearly made up ..... but why ?
Was the whole red neckerchief thing nonsense ?
I'm sure we're all aware that at that time the red neckerchief was associated with Annie Besant .
Who had massive involvement in the Bloody Sunday riots 12 months before , the match girls strike in July , Irish home rule and basically anything anti establishment .
Incidentally according to Donovan , Chapman had recently bought her neckerchief from another lodger .... wonder what colour it was
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  #737  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:48 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Gareth's point is the public would be gossiping about an early time of death on Friday, in part due to the rumored 'cry of murder'.
I said nothing about time of death, Jon. There would have been plenty of gossip giving details of an 'orrible murder in a room in Miller's Court that morning, regardless of time, quite possibly with the name "Mary Kelly" associated with it. As one who had allegedly spoken with Mary Kelly that morning, tailing her and a surly stranger back to her room, any such gossip would surely have been of great interest to George Hutchinson. He didn't need to wait for the papers, nor their confusing, unofficial and unconfirmed reports of time of death.
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  #738  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:58 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Sam, we haven't the foggiest notion of the circumstances of this sighting. It was in Middlesex Street on a crowded market morning. People are milling around slowly in front of stalls. Many people are simply loitering. Most are stopping to look. If Hutchinson had seen the man who supposedly killed his alleged "friend," then it would have taken very little tenacity to edge closer to the man and study him.


The assumption is that this sighting was 'fleeting' and it is a further assumption that Hutchinson approaching a PC the same morning are unrelated. Why assume that? Is there something in the case evidence that shows that interpretation to be the correct one? Personally, I think they could be related. We don't have enough information to know.




Really? Where does he state this? Or is this merely what you've been assuming all these years?

And what do you mean the 'first time'?

Hutchinson gave his statement on the 12th--the day after he saw the man in Middlesex Street. So there is no 'first time' and 'second time.' Hutchinson's statement to the police came after both events.

And that being the case, dear boy, I hope you would appreciate what the concept of 'pollution' means.

As I say, if Hutch were the ideal witness he would be able to block the 11th out of his mind and state ONLY what he had witnessed on the morning of the 9th.

But we know from experience and scientific studies that that is not what happens in the real world. Between his encounter on the 9th and his coming forward on the 12th another significant encounter may have occurred and so we are left with the very real possibility that this second event may have significantly colored his witness statement, particularly if he was trying his hardest to give as much useful detail to the police as possible.

And it certainly looks like that was the case.

As for your claim that it is "well-known" fact that killers come forward as witnesses then you should have no difficulty in providing the statistics.


How often, exactly? 1% of known cases? 8%? 0.003%? Ben has been unable to provide these numbers, but I have every confidence that you will be able to do better. Thanks.
Hi RJ

Quote:
Really? Where does he state this? Or is this merely what you've been assuming all these years?

And what do you mean the 'first time'?

Hutchinson gave his statement on the 12th--the day after he saw the man in Middlesex Street. So there is no 'first time' and 'second time.' Hutchinson's statement to the police came after both events.

And that being the case, dear boy, I hope you would appreciate what the concept of 'pollution' means.
I was referring to first and second sightings-sorry I thought it was obvious in the context.

Quote:
, dear boy,

I am neither dear nor a boy. discuss. ; )

Quote:
As I say, if Hutch were the ideal witness he would be able to block the 11th out of his mind and state ONLY what he had witnessed on the morning of the 9th.

But we know from experience and scientific studies that that is not what happens in the real world. Between his encounter on the 9th and his coming forward on the 12th another significant encounter may have occurred and so we are left with the very real possibility that this second event may have significantly colored his witness statement, particularly if he was trying his hardest to give as much useful detail to the police as possible.

And it certainly looks like that was the case.

RJ, YOU are the one who originally said that this second sighting may have enabled hutch in adding detail in his description of Aman. But your using words like Polluted and colored-those don't sound as clarifying or additive descriptions to me. Anyway as I said, and Daryl so succinctly showed-this second ambiguous sighting would seem to only confuse his reliability.

Quote:
As for your claim that it is "well-known" fact that killers come forward as witnesses then you should have no difficulty in providing the statistics.


How often, exactly? 1% of known cases? 8%? 0.003%? Ben has been unable to provide these numbers, but I have every confidence that you will be able to do better. Thanks.

Nope! wrong again RJ-only anecdotal evidence.


RJ
to show im not just trying to be a total contrarian, I do like your idea that this second daylight sighting (if it happened) on the 9th(whether ambigous or not) may have led him to go to a cop. Id never thought of it before. being totally sincere.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 07-26-2018 at 12:05 PM.
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  #739  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:02 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Once again, you are two steps behind.
Gareth's point is the public would be gossiping about an early time of death on Friday, in part due to the rumored 'cry of murder'.
On what evidence?

No suggestion of a cry of murder in the Friday evening press.
Im not two steps behind Wick-your putting words in Sams mouth about the crys of murder. nice try-but ive become accustomed to these sorts of tactics from you.

And sorry-I forgot you don't think its physically possible for word to get out by you know-people talking to each other.

Are written, published and read newspaper articles the only way info got disseminated in 19th century whitechapel?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 07-26-2018 at 12:11 PM.
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  #740  
Old 07-26-2018, 12:28 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Correct, this is consistent with the previous report that said "Barnet was sent for.....".
He could only have been sent for if he was at a known location. So, that was not his lodgings. They only found out his address from him. Therefore it had to be the police station.
We know he arrived at Millers Court because Abberline took his statement.

Someone, presumably Abberline or Reid "sent for" Barnett, but at what time is the crucial question.
Him viewing her body through the window only indicates he was not allowed inside by the police.
It doesn't prove the door was still locked.
They weren't going to keep Barnett in the police station while Whitehall's finest and the landlord were pondering gaining entry without a key ..... clearly
You're assuming that an officer went to tell Abberline that Barnett had showed up and if so do you really believe he wouldn't have taken Barnett down with him knowing full well that Abberline would need to speak to him .
The 'barnett was sent for' is clearly a journalistic error
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