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  #3841  
Old 12-12-2016, 04:21 PM
moste moste is offline
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Quote :Why put more petrol in the car anyway? The gunman knew it wasn't empty, even though he'd been told there was less petrol in the car than there actually was. But why put anothyer two gallons in? Presumably the gunman had it in his head that he was going to drive off and keep going for some considerable time without VS and Gregsten. I have never thought that he intended to kill either of them but then once the gun went off after he was scared by Gregsten, he probably thought he had no choice but to kill again.
Hi Ansonman
First off, 'Why put more petrol in the car? Well as I think I posted recently , 'the petrol gauge was broken. Reason for thinking this? The assailant could easily have read the gauge from where he sat. Additionally ,it's likely that Gregsten kept a meticulous log of petrol consumption ,plus miles travelled ,for this very reason.
I'm not sure I follow ' the gunman knew he was going to be travelling a good distance without Gregsten and Valerie? Yet he shot Gregsten by accident? Not quite with you on that one.
In any event ,the gunman made sure he had a minimum of 60 miles in the tank right from the Regent garage.
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  #3842  
Old 12-12-2016, 04:40 PM
moste moste is offline
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Hi Sherlock.
In answer to your number one. We have an annomily .
Not only were the police completely negligent in not swooping on the corn field immediately ,or even sooner, to question everyone and anyone about possible sightings in this entire crime scene area,
It also turns out that the old Bill were extremely tardy in not doing an immediate door to door enquiry of residents in Avondale crescent where the car was discovered! I find it impossible to come up with a reason for these two facts without concluding, 'they didn't need to interview or question anyone ,they already had an agenda!
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  #3843  
Old 12-12-2016, 04:48 PM
NickB NickB is offline
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Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
As I say, I do not know the answers to any of these questions, but would like to know more about the background to the case. Any help would be appreciated.
I would say the answers to your questions in general is 'no'. There is a lot of discussion on this forum about all your points, in particular about his driving abilities or lack of them.

Regarding point 5 the defence's DNA expert Dr Evison, put it this way: I think there are a number of specific circumstances where I don't believe the possibility of contamination can be excluded. I think there is a possibility that contamination could have occured. (my italics) As you probably know, the Appeal court considered the possibility and rejected it.
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  #3844  
Old 12-12-2016, 04:48 PM
Sherlock Sherlock is offline
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Hi Cobalt

I didn't realise that my nom de plume was similar to that of another contributor to this thread. I am sorry if it has caused confusion.

Although it is not strictly relevant to this thread, I am not certain that Timothy Evans was responsible for the deaths of his wife and child, but some writers have put forward evidence to the contrary, which I feel it is only fair to consider. I do not think that this necessarily qualifies me for the funny farm!

As far as Hanratty is concerned, I am aware that it is a very complex case with a great many side issues. For what it is worth, due in part to some of the uncertainties I have already listed, my gut reaction is that he may not have been guilty, but I could be wrong. I just do not know.

I would have to admit right away that I am not as knowlegeable about the case as some of the contributors to this thread. That is why I am hoping that some of them such as yourself and Sherlock Houses may be able to help me.

I am aware that Valerie Storie sadly died earlier this year. She was the only living person who came face to face with the gunman and was convinced for the rest of her life that it was indeed Hanratty. I do not know if she was right or wrong or if the DNA evidence can be considered as conclusive.

It is my understanding that the evidence put forward at the trial was somewhat ambiguous and that there was some surprise in court when the guilty verdict was announced, but that in the minds of the judiciary the DNA evidence affirmed this verdict and closed the case for ever.

I also understand that the trial was originally scheduled to be held at the Old Bailey as it was felt that Hanratty would have received a fairer trial there, but was switched back to Bedford at the last minute. Has a reason ever emerged for this?

This case has a good many questions which do not always have easy answers.

Last edited by Sherlock : 12-12-2016 at 05:17 PM.
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  #3845  
Old 12-12-2016, 06:32 PM
moste moste is offline
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Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
Hi Cobalt

I didn't realise that my nom de plume was similar to that of another contributor to this thread. I am sorry if it has caused confusion.

Although it is not strictly relevant to this thread, I am not certain that Timothy Evans was responsible for the deaths of his wife and child, but some writers have put forward evidence to the contrary, which I feel it is only fair to consider. I do not think that this necessarily qualifies me for the funny farm!

As far as Hanratty is concerned, I am aware that it is a very complex case with a great many side issues. For what it is worth, due in part to some of the uncertainties I have already listed, my gut reaction is that he may not have been guilty, but I could be wrong. I just do not know.

I would have to admit right away that I am not as knowlegeable about the case as some of the contributors to this thread. That is why I am hoping that some of them such as yourself and Sherlock Houses may be able to help me.

I am aware that Valerie Storie sadly died earlier this year. She was the only living person who came face to face with the gunman and was convinced for the rest of her life that it was indeed Hanratty. I do not know if she was right or wrong or if the DNA evidence can be considered as conclusive.

It is my understanding that the evidence put forward at the trial was somewhat ambiguous and that there was some surprise in court when the guilty verdict was announced, but that in the minds of the judiciary the DNA evidence affirmed this verdict and closed the case for ever.

I also understand that the trial was originally scheduled to be held at the Old Bailey as it was felt that Hanratty would have received a fairer trial there, but was switched back to Bedford at the last minute. Has a reason ever emerged for this?

This case has a good many questions which do not always have easy answers.
Hello Sherlock.
It sounds like you may have a genuine interest in the A 6 mystery.

If you're really interested you may consider spending a few weeks reading old A6 threads, also I would recommend a copy of Paul Foots "Who killed Hanratty?" and Bob Woffindens "The final verdict" fascinating reading both, though written from the perspective that Hanratty was innocent. I have read stuff seen through the eyes of an author who believes Hanratty to have been guilty, but it didn't come close to measuring up to the quality of investigative journalism that these two portray
As far as DNA is concerned ,Rob Harriman wrote a tome on the subject, "Hanratty: The DNA Travesty."(available on Kindle) and has recently released a second. They are both heavy reading and a thorough understanding of the science of DNA is pretty much a requirement to tackle those I would suggest. However Harriman makes some excellent points, even for the lay person to understand, and he has certainly gone into a great deal of research and studying of the case before drawing conclusions that the official judgement on the DNA issue was, well ,left wanting, to put it nicely.
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  #3846  
Old 12-12-2016, 11:45 PM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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But if you still have reservations about who killed Beryl and Geraldine Evans then you really belong in the funny farm.
Hello Sherlock, welcome to the A6 Thread. Your unorthodox views should sit well with the Hanrattyite lobby (aka Hanrattyistas).

All the books to which Moste has referred will soon be rendered obsolete by a third appeal made on behalf of the late lamented and much missed Hanratty which has been promised for early 2011.

Only then will the full facts of this fascinating case emerge. However, by way of a taster, or amuse-bouche as our French cousins might say, of what is to be revealed in the new appeal and to assist you in finding answers to the questions that you have posed I will say as follows.

You are barking up the wrong tree looking for evidence of abduction at the cornfield in Dorney Reach. It is now thought by leading Hanratty activists that Gregsten voluntarily drove to Deadman's Hill in furtherance of some planned skullduggery. He (and Miss Storie) were not held up by the gunman at all and the gunman did not get into the car until after he had shot Michael Gregsten.

When the gunman did get into the car, he did so wearing a rubber suit with plastic buttons and/or velcro fastenings. I am not sure whether he was wearing the rubber suit when he raped Miss Storie.

After the killing, rape and attempted killing, the gunman drove north to Matlock where he donned a green pom-pom hat and drove around a bit, during which time he was spotted by a very reliable witness, Mr William Lee at 6.30 a.m. From Matlock the gunman drove south towards Leicester where he bought petrol from a Mr Douglas at midday. He was then spotted in the St Albans area at about 1 pm.

From the previous paragraph it can be seen that there is no way the gunman and the Morris Minor could have been in Avondale Crescent on the morning of 23 August 1961. The police should have asked the Avondale residents whether they had seen a man in the AFTERNOON wearing a rubber suit with plastic buttons and/or velcro fastenings (but not a green pom-pom hat which the gunman had left in the car), if that question had been asked then the answers would have solved the case in an instance and someone but not Hanratty would have been convicted.

Here's a report of the case.
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  #3847  
Old 12-13-2016, 05:49 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
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Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
... I do not know the answers to any of these questions, but would like to know more about the background to the case. Any help would be appreciated.
The short answer is, Hanratty was guilty. To argue otherwise will suck you in to conspiracy theories so convoluted that you'll require TWO tinfoil hats to ward off the dictates of the facts and logic.
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  #3848  
Old 12-13-2016, 05:57 AM
Sherlock Sherlock is offline
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I was aware that Hanratty's family wished to launch a fresh appeal. Is there one in prospect?

I agree that it might involve one in some pretty far-fetched theories and speculation if one was to stick obstinately to the opinion that Hanratty was guilty and not consider any evidence to the contrary. That is why I am keeping an open mind at the moment.
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  #3849  
Old 12-13-2016, 07:53 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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The much-vaunted new appeal supposedly planned to be heard during 2011 didn't happen. For the Appeal Court to consider a fresh appeal it would need to see new evidence, and unless someone somewhere is holding something back, there is no new evidence, post the 2002 Appeal, in the A6 Case. There is also the question of finance - who would pay for a fresh appeal? Further, I understand that the lawyer who supported the Hanratty family in their efforts to launch a new appeal no longer represents them.

Graham
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  #3850  
Old 12-13-2016, 09:08 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
Hi Cobalt

I didn't realise that my nom de plume was similar to that of another contributor to this thread. I am sorry if it has caused confusion.

Although it is not strictly relevant to this thread, I am not certain that Timothy Evans was responsible for the deaths of his wife and child, but some writers have put forward evidence to the contrary, which I feel it is only fair to consider. I do not think that this necessarily qualifies me for the funny farm!

As far as Hanratty is concerned, I am aware that it is a very complex case with a great many side issues. For what it is worth, due in part to some of the uncertainties I have already listed, my gut reaction is that he may not have been guilty, but I could be wrong. I just do not know.

I would have to admit right away that I am not as knowlegeable about the case as some of the contributors to this thread. That is why I am hoping that some of them such as yourself and Sherlock Houses may be able to help me.

I am aware that Valerie Storie sadly died earlier this year. She was the only living person who came face to face with the gunman and was convinced for the rest of her life that it was indeed Hanratty. I do not know if she was right or wrong or if the DNA evidence can be considered as conclusive.

It is my understanding that the evidence put forward at the trial was somewhat ambiguous and that there was some surprise in court when the guilty verdict was announced, but that in the minds of the judiciary the DNA evidence affirmed this verdict and closed the case for ever.

I also understand that the trial was originally scheduled to be held at the Old Bailey as it was felt that Hanratty would have received a fairer trial there, but was switched back to Bedford at the last minute. Has a reason ever emerged for this?

This case has a good many questions which do not always have easy answers.
Hi Sherlock - off topic as you say but some of the best conversations are! I would be interested in having a butcher's at the Christie & Evans thread - assume that's on another forum, grateful for a link or reference.

My take on Hanratty is that whilst he did it, his guilt was not fairly and reasonably proven and so imo the Court of Appeal should have upheld the application made on his behalf in 2002. With that view, there is no way I could ever argue for Evans' guilt given the main prosecution witness at his trial was subsequently totally discredited when shown to be a serial killer.

So yes, for me, ''Christie done it''. I consider him not being involved up to his neck inconceivable. However, that doesn't mean Evans couldn't have had some involvement and understanding of what went on. Like Hanratty, Evans was a liar which harmed his defence and makes any assessment today more difficult. Evans may have been a frightened innocent when he left Rillington Place but that is an assumption and gleaning facts to fully support or reject it is not straightforward.

Best regards,

OneRound
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