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  #3651  
Old 05-01-2018, 04:28 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
These were deliberately severed heads not over exuberant throat cuttings.
Quite so.
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  #3652  
Old 05-01-2018, 09:59 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Its also perfectly possible that if someone found a body burned to ashes someone could have said ‘well its possible that her body might have at one time looked exactly like Mary Kelly’s.’

Surely your taking an inference too far Fish? These were deliberately severed heads not over exuberant throat cuttings.
There has never been any question about whether the heads in the torso series were deliberately severed or not, Herlock. We all, each and every one of us, know that this was so. It is a non-issue. Nobody in the whole wide world thinks it was accidental.

So why bring that up? How could it possibly be of interest?

I will tell you why it is brought up: Because - speaking of inferences - you want to infer that neck, throat and spine all were severed at the same time.

This is where the whole issue is at risk to become misleading! Because what applies is NOT that neck, throat and spine all were severed simulataneously. What applies is that EITHER

A/ neck, throat and spine were severed simultaneously, OR

B/ the neck and throat was FIRST cut, in the exact same way the Ripper victims had their necks cut, and then, some time after that, the spine was severed.

If A applies, then the deeds were dissimilar in this respect, but if B applies, they were EXACTLY similar in this respect.

So very, very far from "taking the inference too far" this is a crucial matter, Herlock.

There will however be no answer to it: We cannot know whether A or B applies. Consequently, both can be true, and consequently my question "Is it not true that the deeds can have been exactly similar in this respect?" can only be answered with a "Yes, it is true".

But Gareth won´t touch the question with a ten feet pole, because he is afraid to have it agreed upon. He wants to deny it, he cannot deny it and so he chooses to not even answer it. And he calls it "irrelevant", even!

That is an absolutely deplorable way of debating, when you are not even able to acknowledge the most crucial of facts, instead opting for dubbing them "irrelevant". Or, for that matter, claiming that it is taking an inference too far when no inference has been made at all.

I am not "inferring" that B is the correct solution. I am saying that it MAY be the correct solution and that we must not try and peddle the idea that A is instead the only possibility. We should be honest and acknowledge that it could have been either way.

Putting it otherwise, when somebody claims that this detail represents something that differs inbetween the series, or comes up with the nutty idea that the fact that the Ripper victims had their throats cut would somehow tell them apart from the Torso cases, where the throats were ALSO cut, then the time has come to put an end to the shenaningans. If I am able to say it could have been both ways, I find it beyond pityful when the other side is unable to admit as much.

It-is-a-fact-that-the -cutting-of-the-soft-parts-of-the-neck-can-have-been-done-in-the-exact-same-manner-in-both-series-and-for-the-same-reason.

Equally, it-is-a-fact-that-neck-throat-and-spine-can-have-been-cut-simultaneously-in-the-torso-series.

Are we clear on this now?

Last edited by Fisherman : 05-01-2018 at 10:09 PM.
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  #3653  
Old 05-01-2018, 11:21 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The Ripper victims did not "have their necks cut". They had their THROATS cut.

As to the BEHEADED torso victims - to say that their necks were cut is a gross understatement, if not an insult to their memory - we just don't know whether their throats were cut or not. Some might have been strangled, others smothered, others might have had their heads bashed in.
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  #3654  
Old 05-02-2018, 01:22 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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There has never been any question about whether the heads in the torso series were deliberately severed or not, Herlock. We all, each and every one of us, know that this was so. It is a non-issue. Nobody in the whole wide world thinks it was accidental.

So why bring that up? How could it possibly be of interest?

I will tell you why it is brought up: Because - speaking of inferences - you want to infer that neck, throat and spine all were severed at the same time.

This is where the whole issue is at risk to become misleading! Because what applies is NOT that neck, throat and spine all were severed simulataneously. What applies is that EITHER

A/ neck, throat and spine were severed simultaneously, OR

B/ the neck and throat was FIRST cut, in the exact same way the Ripper victims had their necks cut, and then, some time after that, the spine was severed.

If A applies, then the deeds were dissimilar in this respect, but if B applies, they were EXACTLY similar in this respect.

So very, very far from "taking the inference too far" this is a crucial matter, Herlock.

There will however be no answer to it: We cannot know whether A or B applies. Consequently, both can be true, and consequently my question "Is it not true that the deeds can have been exactly similar in this respect?" can only be answered with a "Yes, it is true".

But Gareth won´t touch the question with a ten feet pole, because he is afraid to have it agreed upon. He wants to deny it, he cannot deny it and so he chooses to not even answer it. And he calls it "irrelevant", even!

That is an absolutely deplorable way of debating, when you are not even able to acknowledge the most crucial of facts, instead opting for dubbing them "irrelevant". Or, for that matter, claiming that it is taking an inference too far when no inference has been made at all.

I am not "inferring" that B is the correct solution. I am saying that it MAY be the correct solution and that we must not try and peddle the idea that A is instead the only possibility. We should be honest and acknowledge that it could have been either way.

Putting it otherwise, when somebody claims that this detail represents something that differs inbetween the series, or comes up with the nutty idea that the fact that the Ripper victims had their throats cut would somehow tell them apart from the Torso cases, where the throats were ALSO cut, then the time has come to put an end to the shenaningans. If I am able to say it could have been both ways, I find it beyond pityful when the other side is unable to admit as much.

It-is-a-fact-that-the -cutting-of-the-soft-parts-of-the-neck-can-have-been-done-in-the-exact-same-manner-in-both-series-and-for-the-same-reason.

Equally, it-is-a-fact-that-neck-throat-and-spine-can-have-been-cut-simultaneously-in-the-torso-series.

Are we clear on this now?
I think you need to take a step back, take a deep breath and clear your head, and revisit the torsos again.

Looking at each one individually what do we have.

In every case, a dead female, who may have been murdered by a serial killer, or by a single killer, or may have died as a result of some medical procedure which may have just been being administered some noxious substance to procure an abortion. Can we conclusively prove any of them. The answer is no.!

If one or more were murdered as is being suggested, throat cutting or strangulation would not be relevant to the end result and either method cannot be proven despite all your arguments, because the heads were removed and that would remove any evidence of either.

Who ever then has charge of that body has an urgent need to dispose of it for obvious reasons. So what can be done, as Dr Biggs states and I think most will agree that there are only so many ways a body can be dismembered. The easiest is to cut it into 6 pieces. With that in mind we have to ask why would there be a need to open up the abdomens, thereby making disposal more difficult, and creating a bloody mess.

But we know that the torsos did have their abdomens opened up, but for what purpose, to remove organs, and take them away? well that is clearly not evident in most of the cases so that might rule out a serial killer taking organs. So one minus point to comparisons to the WM as per you theory.

Another minus point with regards to comparisons is that the heads of the torsos were missing, and why was that? Another means to hide the identity.
Certainly the WM did not make any attempt to hide the identity of any of the victims, nor did he make any attempt to lure them to anywhere for the purpose of dismemberment. They were murdered where they were found.

I personally think the answer to the torsos lies with the women themselves.

They were all believed to have been prostitutes, all relatively young in age, and they may have been in the very early stages of pregnancy, or believed they were pregnant. Jackson we know was heavily pregnant.

So if they sought help, and as a result of that help they died then, whoever administered whatever, or carried out some procedure would need to dispose of the body and hide the identity of that body.

These so called back street medicos were quite proficient when it came to medical knowledge, in fact one coroner did make mention of the fact that these back st medicos should not be underestimated as to their medical knowledge.

That being said we cannot discount the fact that having a dead body to dispose of to avoid prosecution, they would know how valuable organs were for research. So another plausible suggestion is that they opened up the abdomens if they had not been already opened up, and removed various organs to perhaps sell onto medical establishments.

One final minus point to note for comparisons to the WM. In those murders the abdomens of the victims were subjected to stabbing and mutilation. That does not appear to be the case of the Torsos.

So having taken a deep breath, and cleared you head. I hope you can now look at these torsos in a totally different light and take off those blinkers

There was no serial killer at work, and the similarities you seek to rely on do not stand up to close scrutiny

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #3655  
Old 05-02-2018, 02:15 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
There has never been any question about whether the heads in the torso series were deliberately severed or not, Herlock. We all, each and every one of us, know that this was so. It is a non-issue. Nobody in the whole wide world thinks it was accidental.

So why bring that up? How could it possibly be of interest?

I will tell you why it is brought up: Because - speaking of inferences - you want to infer that neck, throat and spine all were severed at the same time.

This is where the whole issue is at risk to become misleading! Because what applies is NOT that neck, throat and spine all were severed simulataneously. What applies is that EITHER

A/ neck, throat and spine were severed simultaneously, OR

B/ the neck and throat was FIRST cut, in the exact same way the Ripper victims had their necks cut, and then, some time after that, the spine was severed.

If A applies, then the deeds were dissimilar in this respect, but if B applies, they were EXACTLY similar in this respect.

So very, very far from "taking the inference too far" this is a crucial matter, Herlock.

There will however be no answer to it: We cannot know whether A or B applies. Consequently, both can be true, and consequently my question "Is it not true that the deeds can have been exactly similar in this respect?" can only be answered with a "Yes, it is true".

But Gareth won´t touch the question with a ten feet pole, because he is afraid to have it agreed upon. He wants to deny it, he cannot deny it and so he chooses to not even answer it. And he calls it "irrelevant", even!

That is an absolutely deplorable way of debating, when you are not even able to acknowledge the most crucial of facts, instead opting for dubbing them "irrelevant". Or, for that matter, claiming that it is taking an inference too far when no inference has been made at all.

I am not "inferring" that B is the correct solution. I am saying that it MAY be the correct solution and that we must not try and peddle the idea that A is instead the only possibility. We should be honest and acknowledge that it could have been either way.

Putting it otherwise, when somebody claims that this detail represents something that differs inbetween the series, or comes up with the nutty idea that the fact that the Ripper victims had their throats cut would somehow tell them apart from the Torso cases, where the throats were ALSO cut, then the time has come to put an end to the shenaningans. If I am able to say it could have been both ways, I find it beyond pityful when the other side is unable to admit as much.

It-is-a-fact-that-the -cutting-of-the-soft-parts-of-the-neck-can-have-been-done-in-the-exact-same-manner-in-both-series-and-for-the-same-reason.

Equally, it-is-a-fact-that-neck-throat-and-spine-can-have-been-cut-simultaneously-in-the-torso-series.

Are we clear on this now?
Yet again an unneccesarily patronizing last sentence.

I understand your point perfectly Fish. Indeed there is a bit of a parallel in the JFK assassination story where researchers (conspiracy theorists) believe that a bullet exit wound in the Presidents throat (which would mean a shot from the front and therefore a conspiracy) could have been hidden/disguised by a tracheotomy that was performed to try and save his life.

There appears to be no way of being certain if the Torso victims had their throats cut before their heads came off. As we can’t know either way there’s not much point arguing about it.

A more relevant debate is why The Torso Killer removed the heads whereas Jack didn’t. Because they were 2 different people perhaps?
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  #3656  
Old 05-02-2018, 02:21 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
The Ripper victims did not "have their necks cut". They had their THROATS cut.

As to the BEHEADED torso victims - to say that their necks were cut is a gross understatement, if not an insult to their memory - we just don't know whether their throats were cut or not. Some might have been strangled, others smothered, others might have had their heads bashed in.
Just answer my questions and we will be fine:

Is it possible that the victims in both series sustained the same type of cuts, at least initially, before the spine was severed in the torso series?

That is all you need to answer. Unlike what Herlock leads on, I am not inferring anything at all, I am only saying that it is a possibility that this was so, just as it is a possibility that everything was cut in a single sequence (or two, to be fair - both knife and saw were used in most cases).

No other questions need to be answered but this one.
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  #3657  
Old 05-02-2018, 02:21 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Talking of admitting of possibilities Fish isn’t it possible that Trevor’s last post might be a possible explaination of events?
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  #3658  
Old 05-02-2018, 02:28 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
There appears to be no way of being certain if the Torso victims had their throats cut before their heads came off. As we can’t know either way there’s not much point arguing about it.
Yes! YES!! You DID it! Bravo, Herlock! This is what Gareth has been unable to acknowledge. You beat him to it. Well done!!!
There is NO way of knowing this, and that is EXACTLY what I have been saying for the longest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
A more relevant debate is why The Torso Killer removed the heads whereas Jack didn’t. Because they were 2 different people perhaps?
It is not more relevant, no - acknowledging that they may be the same type of wounds, made in the same way and for the same reason is VERY relevant and important.
Your question is nevertheless extremely interesting. One explanation is that they were two killers - but that does not explain the dozen or so similarities.

The explanation that the dismemberment was led on by how the killer had murdered the women in the torso series in a location that was tied to his identity, and that he therefore needed to clear the corpse away, covers BOTH things, though - dismemberment AND similarities alike.

So there you are, Herlock. That is how I see things.
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  #3659  
Old 05-02-2018, 02:47 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Sorry if i am sounding numb here but it seems to me that the cutting of the throats/decapitation of the heads was done, not as a similarity but as a necessity. In torso's case none of the heads 87-89 where found. To me that means, even if their throats where cut before the heads where taken off, that was done to make ID harder or impossible. IE the victims, if identified could possibly lead to the perpetrator. Necessity. Note if Liz was decapitated for instance, and her body never identified would Kidney be seen as a suspect ? But since Jack probably didn't know any of his victims he had no need to do that. In his case the cutting of the throat was probably done to silence his victims quickly after he probably half strangled them first. Necessity. And i think you could even argue that after he killed Martha, i know that isn't a given, but if he did, he learned to slit the victims throats to make sure they where dead quicker, rather than stabbing them numerous times. And that would post date some of the torso victims.
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  #3660  
Old 05-02-2018, 03:14 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sorry if i am sounding numb here but it seems to me that the cutting of the throats/decapitation of the heads was done, not as a similarity but as a necessity. In torso's case none of the heads 87-89 where found. To me that means, even if their throats where cut before the heads where taken off, that was done to make ID harder or impossible. IE the victims, if identified could possibly lead to the perpetrator. Necessity. Note if Liz was decapitated for instance, and her body never identified would Kidney be seen as a suspect ? But since Jack probably didn't know any of his victims he had no need to do that. In his case the cutting of the throat was probably done to silence his victims quickly after he probably half strangled them first. Necessity. And i think you could even argue that after he killed Martha, i know that isn't a given, but if he did, he learned to slit the victims throats to make sure they where dead quicker, rather than stabbing them numerous times. And that would post date some of the torso victims.
I would suggest that since we know that the Torso killer mutilated and eviscerated too, just like the Ripper did, there is every reason not to accept that the dismemberments were a practicality only.

As has been said before - and it seems to me that everything has been - this killer did NOT weigh down the parts he threw in the river, but instead he floated them down the Thames. That is not something a person who wants to conceal a crime does.
Nor does such a person leave clothes with the victims that can lead to their identification.
Nor does such a person leave moles and scars on a corpse.
Nor does such a person place the torso of a victim in the basement of the New Scotland Yard building

It seems abundantly clear that the torso murders were not about hiding away the victims and concealing the crimes. Therefore, I think there may well be another reason for the absense of the heads than a wish to hide the identities of the victims.

As we can see, the torso killer spent a lot of time and work on the head of the 1873 victim, carving away the face, eyelashes included, in one piece from the skull.

For many mutilators, different parts of the body carry importance to them. The head can have been such a part, and the killer can have kept the heads for purpose of self-gratification instead of concealment.

The damage done to the torso victims certainly allows for such an interpretation.

Last edited by Fisherman : 05-02-2018 at 03:29 AM.
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