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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3051  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:17 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
The Torso Killer presumably had as much time as he wanted to do what he wanted so if Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same why not go as far as Mary Kelly in terms of mutilation each time?
Quite so, John. Indeed, why not go beyond Kelly each time?
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  #3052  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:26 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Quite so, John. Indeed, why not go beyond Kelly each time?
Like I asked John, are we supposed to believe that the Ripper was disturbed on four occasions? Otherwise, why did he not take out all organs every time?

We may be fascinated with the differences, but we cannot use them to negate the suggestion of one killer. Not as long as the similarities speak very clearly for it.

You have had a number of questions asked by now. How about answering them?
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  #3053  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:50 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is online now
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
True enough. But we know that he DID do it like this, knife first, saw afterwards. It is in the records. The only exception is the Pinchin Street torso, where he never used a saw at all.

As an aside, if the torso killer had used a saw to sever the necks, there would not be much of a case for comparing that detail to the Rippers work.
Just to clarify Fish, i assume that you mean if if the TK had used a saw alone?
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  #3054  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Yes, the soft parts had been cut through with a knife.

It certainly had something to do with decapitation, but it’s unknown whether it had anything to do with cause of death.

I didn’t leave it out for any particular reason, but posting from my phone at 2 a.m. I merely tried to be accurate but succinct. I also hastily assumed it was known a knife had been used to prepare the final separation, I apologize.
No worries. Thanks for clarifying.
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  #3055  
Old 04-15-2018, 05:03 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The problem that is tainting this debate lies in how some posters are saying that the reason the soft parts of the neck were severed in the Torso cases, was that the killer was in the process of dismembering the corpses, wanted to take the head off, and so he had to sever the soft parts of the neck and saw the spine off.

Is this true?

It is true that a practically directed dismemberment will habitually involve this exact operation - whether by saw or by knife, the head is taken off and the neck with the spine is severed in the process.

If this was what happened to the Torso vicims and if practical considerations was what lie behind it, then the Torso murders are not like the Ripper murders as regards this detail. That is beyond dispute.

However, just because we have a dismembered corpse, it does NOT follow automatically that the severed neck and spine has come about as part of a dispassionate measure after the victim died!

THIS, and this ONLY is where we must take very great care not to persuade ourselves into thinking that we know what happened.

We MUST ask ourselves: Could it be that the necks - once again, throats included - were cut by the killer while the victim was alive?

Could it be that the victims were subjected to the same type of cut that the Ripper victims were?

There is absolutely no way that this can be denied and ruled out. No way whatsoever.

Once we, all of us, realize this, there is only one way to prolong the debate if we want to battle on. And that is to ask the question "Is it more likely that it was a practicality only - or is more pointing to a Ripper style cut?"

Those who say that it is in all probability a practically governed cutting only, aiming to take the head off after death, have one advantage: We KNOW that these were dismemberment murders, and dismemberment killers regularly do this, with no passion involved at all.

Those who say that we need to accept that they can have been Ripper style cuts, have other things to point to: We KNOW that the Torso killer mutilated and eviscerated, and so it would seem that his reason for killing was a wish to do things to the body. And such murders are not practically led on murders. They are instead murders led on by a rare paraphilia. It does not matter that evisceration is a proven thing in one murder only. Once we see it, we know it is there within the killers psyche. And we do know that other victims can have been eviscerated too, just as we know that he at the very least mutilated more than one victim.
It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the killer may have regarded the dismemberment itself as something he enjoyed doing - part of the driving force, as it were.
We also have the point that Jerry makes - Hebbert says that prior to taking the heads completely off, the necks were noted as having several cuts or incisions around the whole of the neck and the vessels in the neck had clean cuts.
Jerry goes on to say "To me it sounds as if the necks were cut around with a knife first, and then removed with a saw".
This too is in line with how the Ripper cut his victims, and - crucially - we must accept that there is nothing at all standing in the way of the possibility that the cutting of the soft parts of the neck came about in the exact same fashion in both series. If Gareth thinks that the cuts to the Ripper victims´ neck area can and may only be described as "throat cuts", then that becomes immaterial as an argument against the one killer theory for the simple reason that the Torso victims may have been subjected to the exact same cutting.
The third thing speaking for the possibility of similar cuts is how there are many other points speaking for a common killer, not least the fact that both killers are proven to have taken away the abdominal walls of their victims in large flaps. This is an almighty connector since it is extremely rare, and if we accept that it points to a single killer, the we must also accept that the more probable thing is that this killer did not change his cutting technique inbetween series.

That is the long and the short of it. And I´ll be damned if I am going to accept to be called a devious liar for pointing it out.
A good and fair balanced post fish, taking in both sides.
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  #3056  
Old 04-15-2018, 05:05 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That being the case, it would appear that the only torso victim found in East London was disarticulated via a very different technique, and with a different, less efficient, tool than the others. Thus it is quite possible, if not rather likely, that a different perpetrator(s) was responsible for the Pinchin St case.

Why resort to detaching the head with a knife when an experienced operator would have known that a saw would do the job more effectively? Even an inexperienced person should have realised as much, so one can only presume that, unlike the other perpetrators, the Pinchin chappie(s) had no access to a more suitable implement.
That’s a great question Sam, and a good point. It definitely points to a different killer in this case.
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  #3057  
Old 04-15-2018, 05:10 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
See, Kattrup, this is where some posters, and you are one of them, are premature: You say that the use of the knife to the soft parts of the neck was a preparation for the final separation.

That is not in evidence, I´m afraid.

It is a totally logical consideration on your part, and most people will see the logic of it: If he wanted to take the head off, then he would reasonably first sever the soft parts of the neck, and then he would fetch his saw and finish the job.

The problem with all if this is that it neatly sweeps the question of motivation under the rug, and it all looks just like another practical dismemberment case. Any consideration of the cutting and severing - all of it - as part of a paraphilia is skipped over.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I THINK that you are, but I am much aware that I cannot prove it. And so it remains a possibility that it was a practicality only for the killer to take the head off, including the work needed to accomplish it.

But we must also consider the possibility that the killer commenced his onslaught on the Torso victims by grabbing them and slicing their throats deeply, just like the Ripper did. While they were alive. Just like the Ripper did.

And with that backdrop, the cut to the soft parts of the neck becomes something different than a preparation for taking the head off by severing the spine. With that backdrop, passion and paraphilia enter the scenario, and we have a case where the cut to the neck may have been an aim in itself, whereafter the subsequent severing of the spine could have been a practical measure (or something he enjoyed doing!), but the initial cut was NOT.

There is a third possibility too, actually - that the cutting of the soft parts of the neck was practical, but not tied to the severing of the spine other than in a secondary fashion. It goes like this:
The killer had a phantasy about mutilating and eviscerating, but his whole interest was focused on the abdominal cavity and the innards. So in order to get at the abdominal cavity, he cut the soft parts of the neck first, killing and bleedeing the victim off.
That makes the cutting of the soft parts a practicality, a means to an end.
Once he had had his fun, he needed to get rid of the body, and so he dismembered it, making the severing of the spien another practicality.

If you look at this possiblity, yo will see that it very closely resembles the motivation ground most people ascribe to the Ripper - and the dismemberment was only added since he needed to get rid of the body, a problem that did not come up when he killed in the open streets.

We can all take our picks and we may all be right whichever choice we make. I hope we may agree on this?

Personally, I think that there was a paraphilia at play, and that every part of the cutting, the dismemberments included, were things he did - at least to a degree - on account of the urge he had. The bodies are too differently cut up and too oddly cut up and cut up in too many pieces for them to be good representatives of the practical dismemberment division. But that´s just how I feel, of course. There is always a choice.

What there is NOT is any certainty that the Torso murder dismemberments were practical matters only.
Totally agree with this. For me both torso man the ripper and or the torsoripper main thing was cutting up the bodies of women post mortem with his knife.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #3058  
Old 04-15-2018, 05:21 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Just to clarify Fish, i assume that you mean if if the TK had used a saw alone?
If he had used a saw alone, yes, then there could not be a very good case made for a comparison with the necks (and throats) cut by the Ripper.
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  #3059  
Old 04-15-2018, 05:55 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
The Ripper was targetting women on the backstreets or in their own rooms. Presumably, the throat-cutting was necessary to silence them quickly, ensure they were dead, facilitate exsanguination for the mutilations/excisions, or a combo of all three. Whereas the Torso victims were almost assuredly killed and dismembered in a private bolthole somewhere. If they were the same killer, would he need to adopt the same MO under different circumstances?
IMHO probably.
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-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #3060  
Old 04-15-2018, 06:00 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
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Surely this isnt logical Fish. If a saw can get through the tougher parts at the back of the neck (of an already dead body) then the softer parts at the front would have presented no obstacle?
Hi hs
Not sure about this.its why a butcher uses a knife to cut the softer meat.
I guess either could be used.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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