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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #2041  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:41 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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jerryd: That's if I place Wildbore as the killer of all five canonicals and all four torsos. I believe the possibility exists they were the same man. I have fought in the past that it was not only possible but probable.

I just had supper and I was thinking while I chewed on my chicken that the main reason that I am not fond of the Wildbore idea is that I am totally convinced that the same killer is responsible for both series.
If I had looked uon the series as independent of one another, I think I would have been a lot more enthusiastic about Wildbore.
But I can´t do that. The series DO have the same originator, and therefore Wildbore has to step aside.

I have never included the 1873 torso, although it could be linked. Then when this Wildbore stuff struck me, things changed a little bit. That maybe he was depositing torsos for someone else or he was the torso killer. I haven't gotten far enough with him to link to any Ripper killings, if there even is a link.

The 1873 torso belongs to the torso series and the killer of that woman also killed Mary Jane Kelly, Annie Chapman and Liz Jackson - why not just take it from me...?
As I keep hinting at (wink, wink) there is something that ties these victims together beyond all reasonable doubt.

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

Once my head stops spinning, I´ll come back to you on that, Jerry...

There are a lot of weird things happening in London that weekend in my opinion.

Without a doubt!
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  #2042  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:43 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Christer,

The staining on the wall is another mystery to me. It could have been from the body but it may have been from something else. Pure speculation here, but maybe another body part or even the torso rested there at a previous date and was subsequently moved around. Maybe it wasn't from the body. The foundations had been in place since around 1875. They were prone to water from springs from the Thames. Black Mold comes to mind. I know, I'm crazy. Just trying to offer suggestions.
I think we are all way past crazy out here sometimes, so I know the feeling.
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  #2043  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:15 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
The 1873 torso belongs to the torso series and the killer of that woman also killed Mary Jane Kelly, Annie Chapman and Liz Jackson... As I keep hinting at (wink, wink) there is something that ties these victims together beyond all reasonable doubt.
Three flaps, by any chance? Or two, in Jackson's case.
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  #2044  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:17 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Three flaps, by any chance? Or two, in Jackson's case.
There were no flaps in the 1873 case, as far as I know.
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  #2045  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:28 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
That's if I place Wildbore as the killer of all five canonicals and all four torsos. I believe the possibility exists they were the same man. I have fought in the past that it was not only possible but probable.

I have never included the 1873 torso, although it could be linked. Then when this Wildbore stuff struck me, things changed a little bit. That maybe he was depositing torsos for someone else or he was the torso killer. I haven't gotten far enough with him to link to any Ripper killings, if there even is a link.

I do know he was off on Saturday (for what reason is unknown) when his cohorts were working that day. The site was closed on Sunday. And then two women were ripped up in Whitechapel the early hours of Saturday night/ Sunday morning. On Monday Wildbore sees the torso twice and says nothing. Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything. No one is still notified until Mr. Brown comes down to see Wildbore at 1:00 that afternoon and he then draws attention to the parcel. Meanwhile, that same Monday Oct 1st, the Central News is receiving letters and postcards that they are told to hold back until the proof is shown. In fact, the Saucy Jack postcard, received and postmarked on October 1st, was the same Monday Wildbore knew of the parcel but withheld telling anyone until the following day. Then you have journalists imposing themselves into the search, bringing in their own dogs (without the permission of the police mind you) and happen to find a leg buried in the same vault the torso was found. And let's not forget Claude Mellor finding the thigh in the Shelley Garden. He was also a journalist.

There are a lot of weird things happening in London that weekend in my opinion.
very good post jerry. this does a really good job of explaining why it's the logical conclusion the murders are related. everything going on that weekend, something is surely up and not a coincidence!

Quote:
The staining on the wall is another mystery to me. It could have been from the body but it may have been from something else. Pure speculation here, but maybe another body part or even the torso rested there at a previous date and was subsequently moved around. Maybe it wasn't from the body. The foundations had been in place since around 1875. They were prone to water from springs from the Thames. Black Mold comes to mind. I know, I'm crazy. Just trying to offer suggestions.
I disagree with you here though. sounds like the black **** was from the torso. if you took a 10 day old torso and put it against the wall, how black would the wall be after a few days? so it needn't be in the vault the whole time, but someone posted on here 10-20 days is when body turns black. I imagine if it actually had condy's fluid it could be even older but i'm not sure. personally I think the murder is from around the time of the bloody newspaper found with the body from the 14th
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  #2046  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:32 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Tuesday morning at 6 a.m he sees it again and points it out to Richard Lawrence, neither say anything.
but jerry, as you've pointed out how could Lawrence not notice or say anything about the smell either? now who was the journalist who suggested condy's fluid again?
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  #2047  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:35 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
There were no flaps in the 1873 case, as far as I know.
Sorry, Fish, I missed the reference to 1873. My mistake.
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  #2048  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:43 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Sorry, Fish, I missed the reference to 1873. My mistake.
No probs, Gareth. An easy enough mistake to make.
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  #2049  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:46 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
I disagree with you here though. sounds like the black **** was from the torso. if you took a 10 day old torso and put it against the wall, how black would the wall be after a few days? so it needn't be in the vault the whole time, but someone posted on here 10-20 days is when body turns black. I imagine if it actually had condy's fluid it could be even older but i'm not sure. personally I think the murder is from around the time of the bloody newspaper found with the body from the 14th
Fair enough on the black staining but as far as TOD. I disagree.

First off, it was actually a newspaper dated the 24th of August. If you are saying that is the TOD, then how do you explain the condition of the arm found at Pimlico on September 11th? Dr. Neville felt death probably occurred about September 8th or 9thish. If what you are saying is the case, we would have to add another 2 1/2 weeks of decay to that arm, which would have made it look more decomposed than it was, would it not?

In other words, the arm was either floating in the water or stored somewhere else from August 24th until it showed up at the timer deal on September 11th. If it were floating in the water that long, I would think it would have made it much further down river.
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  #2050  
Old 11-12-2017, 05:25 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Fair enough on the black staining but as far as TOD. I disagree.

First off, it was actually a newspaper dated the 24th of August. If you are saying that is the TOD, then how do you explain the condition of the arm found at Pimlico on September 11th? Dr. Neville felt death probably occurred about September 8th or 9thish. If what you are saying is the case, we would have to add another 2 1/2 weeks of decay to that arm, which would have made it look more decomposed than it was, would it not?

In other words, the arm was either floating in the water or stored somewhere else from August 24th until it showed up at the timer deal on September 11th. If it were floating in the water that long, I would think it would have made it much further down river.
jerry I did mean the 24th but you are totally right. September 8 til October 2 would totally be the right time, I agree

Last edited by RockySullivan : 11-12-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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