Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Sam Flynn 11 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - by Harry D 16 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Trevor Marriott 34 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - by Fantomas 1 hour and 22 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - (27 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (3 posts)
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (2 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - (2 posts)
Non-Fiction: Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #401  
Old 08-21-2015, 04:54 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,360
Default

I still think we're dealing with a killer who was not unlike Richard Chase, or should that be the other way around?

The males were all shot dead, but Evelyn Miroth was even more severely mutilated than Terry Wallin. There were two crossing cuts across across her abdomen, through which her intestines protruded. Her body was covered in stab wounds, some particularly aimed at her face and anal area.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old 08-21-2015, 08:11 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,084
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
I still think we're dealing with a killer who was not unlike Richard Chase, or should that be the other way around?

The males were all shot dead, but Evelyn Miroth was even more severely mutilated than Terry Wallin. There were two crossing cuts across across her abdomen, through which her intestines protruded. Her body was covered in stab wounds, some particularly aimed at her face and anal area.
I don't think he was overtly insane like chase.
Im thinking more along the lines of Dahmer, William suff and kemper.

Although no other serial killer is very similar to the ripper.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #403  
Old 08-21-2015, 09:43 AM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
I still think we're dealing with a killer who was not unlike Richard Chase, or should that be the other way around?

The males were all shot dead, but Evelyn Miroth was even more severely mutilated than Terry Wallin. There were two crossing cuts across across her abdomen, through which her intestines protruded. Her body was covered in stab wounds, some particularly aimed at her face and anal area.
I don't know. Richard Chase had no control. Yes he killed six people, but in three "acts". The first guy was drive by, which was not in his "style", and accomplished few of his goals. He did it because he felt the need, and did not have the capacity to wait and try for something better. The second was chance because of his locked door theory, and the last four were in a frenzy. He had no chance, none whatsoever, of avoiding detection or confrontation. That those things didn't happen were sheer luck. And he wasn't even hunting people when he was going into these houses. He was following other instincts, but when confronted with people he took advantage. He didn't wait for people to come home. He didn't leave because no one was there. He despoiled their houses, stole things, did his thing, moved on. But he wasn't looking for victims specifically. He took them if he found them.

Never mind the fact that had the cops asked people "Gee who do you think this psycho killer is?" everyone who had ever met him would have pointed at Chase. And Chase would have admitted it. Well, he would have ranted for awhile first, but then he would have copped to it.

Chase was so sick that not only was this murder spree always going to happen, they knew it when he was a kid. He needed blood and violence the way we need medicine. Literally. He thought he was dying and this was the cure. So imagine the subtlety you would be capable of if someone poisoned you, and was holding the antidote, but wouldn't give it to you. How much do you care about cops or the law or even the life of the guy who poisoned you in that moment? What would you do to live? Chase's schizophrenia was severe and complicated. His brain really was attacking him. What he did makes sense if you understand his delusions. Sure it's not rational, but his beliefs were as unshakable to him as your belief in gravity is to you. Of course he did this. He was always going to do this. And yet again in the annals of serial killer history, he might have had a chance were it not for his mother. She thought she knew best. She was very wrong.

I don't see Jack that way. I don't see him as some criminal mastermind, but I see a guy in control. He can edit. He can adapt. He is not lashing out, he is hunting. He has the ability to recognize that launching himself at the first potential victim he sees won't end well for him. He is not a rabid dog. He is not consumed by his desires. He has at least some control. He knows that even a few minutes worth of self control will pay off. And he can wait for that payoff. He can stop and run. Something I don't Chase could have done.

And anyway, statistically speaking, far more people kill because they WANT to than because they HAVE to. Far more serial killers kill despite knowing that it is wrong than kill because they think it's right. The biggest problem in that community is narcissism. Not psychosis.
.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #404  
Old 08-21-2015, 01:53 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,084
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
I don't know. Richard Chase had no control. Yes he killed six people, but in three "acts". The first guy was drive by, which was not in his "style", and accomplished few of his goals. He did it because he felt the need, and did not have the capacity to wait and try for something better. The second was chance because of his locked door theory, and the last four were in a frenzy. He had no chance, none whatsoever, of avoiding detection or confrontation. That those things didn't happen were sheer luck. And he wasn't even hunting people when he was going into these houses. He was following other instincts, but when confronted with people he took advantage. He didn't wait for people to come home. He didn't leave because no one was there. He despoiled their houses, stole things, did his thing, moved on. But he wasn't looking for victims specifically. He took them if he found them.

Never mind the fact that had the cops asked people "Gee who do you think this psycho killer is?" everyone who had ever met him would have pointed at Chase. And Chase would have admitted it. Well, he would have ranted for awhile first, but then he would have copped to it.

Chase was so sick that not only was this murder spree always going to happen, they knew it when he was a kid. He needed blood and violence the way we need medicine. Literally. He thought he was dying and this was the cure. So imagine the subtlety you would be capable of if someone poisoned you, and was holding the antidote, but wouldn't give it to you. How much do you care about cops or the law or even the life of the guy who poisoned you in that moment? What would you do to live? Chase's schizophrenia was severe and complicated. His brain really was attacking him. What he did makes sense if you understand his delusions. Sure it's not rational, but his beliefs were as unshakable to him as your belief in gravity is to you. Of course he did this. He was always going to do this. And yet again in the annals of serial killer history, he might have had a chance were it not for his mother. She thought she knew best. She was very wrong.

I don't see Jack that way. I don't see him as some criminal mastermind, but I see a guy in control. He can edit. He can adapt. He is not lashing out, he is hunting. He has the ability to recognize that launching himself at the first potential victim he sees won't end well for him. He is not a rabid dog. He is not consumed by his desires. He has at least some control. He knows that even a few minutes worth of self control will pay off. And he can wait for that payoff. He can stop and run. Something I don't Chase could have done.

And anyway, statistically speaking, far more people kill because they WANT to than because they HAVE to. Far more serial killers kill despite knowing that it is wrong than kill because they think it's right. The biggest problem in that community is narcissism. Not psychosis.
.
Great post Errata
Agree entirely!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #405  
Old 08-22-2015, 02:50 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,360
Default

If one took a spectrum of disorganised to organised killers, with Richard Chase at one end and the likes of Bundy/Gacy at the other, I'd contend that the Ripper would be closer to Chase on that scale than he would the latter. You only have to look at the recent discussion on the murder locations to see that this was someone who took massive gambles, killing his victims in a yard next to a busy social club, the back garden of an occupied house, and backstreets regularly patrolled by constables, two victims in one night etc. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Ripper was at the same level of psychosis as Chase, but even Chase had a basic survival instinct and knew when to flee from the scene of the crime when he thought he was about to get caught. It was only after a woman who went to high school with Chase recognised a police sketch that he ended up on the police radar. Perhaps it was a matter of time before he would've been caught anyway, but couldn't we say the same about the Ripper? We only assume that he was some kind of master criminal because he got away with it. We have no idea why the Whitechapel murders came to an end, it could well have been because he was locked away in an asylum.

We have two serial killers/rapists, Richard Chase & Robert Napper who were both paranoid schizophrenics with ritualistic traits, both mutilated their victims, took organs as trophies, posed their victims, and made no effort to hide the bodies. That doesn't mean that the Ripper was a dead match for these guys, but there are obvious parallels which shouldn't be dismissed.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #406  
Old 08-22-2015, 08:10 AM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
If one took a spectrum of disorganised to organised killers, with Richard Chase at one end and the likes of Bundy/Gacy at the other, I'd contend that the Ripper would be closer to Chase on that scale than he would the latter. You only have to look at the recent discussion on the murder locations to see that this was someone who took massive gambles, killing his victims in a yard next to a busy social club, the back garden of an occupied house, and backstreets regularly patrolled by constables, two victims in one night etc. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Ripper was at the same level of psychosis as Chase, but even Chase had a basic survival instinct and knew when to flee from the scene of the crime when he thought he was about to get caught. It was only after a woman who went to high school with Chase recognised a police sketch that he ended up on the police radar. Perhaps it was a matter of time before he would've been caught anyway, but couldn't we say the same about the Ripper? We only assume that he was some kind of master criminal because he got away with it. We have no idea why the Whitechapel murders came to an end, it could well have been because he was locked away in an asylum.

We have two serial killers/rapists, Richard Chase & Robert Napper who were both paranoid schizophrenics with ritualistic traits, both mutilated their victims, took organs as trophies, posed their victims, and made no effort to hide the bodies. That doesn't mean that the Ripper was a dead match for these guys, but there are obvious parallels which shouldn't be dismissed.
I think there is a difference between saying that Jack is like Chase and that Jack is a little more like Chase than Bundy. Because there is a spectrum, and there are a lot of comparisons between the Ripper and a lot of other killers. Kemper for starters.

And also what a person does with a body is not part of the organised/disorganized spectrum (if that exists, and it increasingly looks like it doesn't). It's part of a different psychological mechanism. There some good literature out there about body dumpers, collectors and abandoners. Yes mental illness can inform the choice to be any of those things, but you get "disorganized" psychotics in all three categories. So leaving a body where it lies is not a function of psychosis, not is it confined to psychosis. Nor is it confined to "disorganized" types. Some killers do it because they don't care. Son of Sam did it to get attention. But despite the press, that guy is probably saner than I am.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #407  
Old 08-26-2015, 06:49 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,360
Default

Just don't think we should be ruling out a paranoid schizophrenic type like Chase or Napper, based on the misguided argument that someone operating under that kind of psychosis would've been caught.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #408  
Old 08-26-2015, 09:17 AM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Just don't think we should be ruling out a paranoid schizophrenic type like Chase or Napper, based on the misguided argument that someone operating under that kind of psychosis would've been caught.
Is the argument that they are killing because they are psychotic, or that they are killing when they are not psychotic?

Because someone with delusions of the pope can kill when they aren't psychotic. Assuming they have none of the more debilitating physical or neurological symptoms associated with schizophrenia, anyone can kill when they are perfectly lucid.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.