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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #21  
Old 01-01-2014, 08:06 AM
RavenDarkendale RavenDarkendale is offline
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
But then ask yourself what is the consistent pay off? Really it's how you find your victim pool. Of all the women who were murdered in the 5 years before and after 1888, he could not have killed them all. So if we say that Annie Chapman was a successful kill (in that Jack got what he wanted from the murder) then we have a few directions we can take. If the pay off was the organ removal, any murder where that attempt wasn't even made is not Jack. If the throat overkill is the payoff, then any victim who had abdominal mutilations but no throat wounds is out. Vice versa for an abdominal wound pay off. And notoriety seekers, the pay off is the attention. They don't collect organs. They collect newspaper articles.
He could have killed all the one he is suspected of killing easily. Look at The Green River Killer, Ted Bundy, Henry Lee Lucas. it has been mentioned that he tried to cut off the women's heads. So perhaps he succeeded at times and proceeded to cut off their limbs as well, i.e., the Torso Murders. Just saying...
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  #22  
Old 01-01-2014, 08:43 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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Originally Posted by RavenDarkendale View Post
He could have killed all the one he is suspected of killing easily. Look at The Green River Killer, Ted Bundy, Henry Lee Lucas. it has been mentioned that he tried to cut off the women's heads. So perhaps he succeeded at times and proceeded to cut off their limbs as well, i.e., the Torso Murders. Just saying...
And that's possible. I'm not saying that there is no way he didn't change his MO, just that he would only change his MO if he could still get what he needed from the murder. And to figure out a victim pool you need to figure out what he needed.

For example if it was the throat overkill he needed, then any victim who showed that or some evolution of that would be in the victim pool, and those with only abdominal injuries would not be.
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  #23  
Old 01-02-2014, 02:21 AM
Digalittledeeperwatson Digalittledeeperwatson is offline
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And that's possible. I'm not saying that there is no way he didn't change his MO, just that he would only change his MO if he could still get what he needed from the murder. And to figure out a victim pool you need to...

For example if it was the throat overkill he needed, then any victim who showed that or some evolution of that would be in the victim pool, and those with only abdominal injuries would not be.
That is why I suggested the discovery aspect as potentially being the thing that must be satiated. I get the feeling of pragmatism from the murders. Calculated might be applicable even. Compulsion doesn't seem to fit. There appears to be a calculating aspect that becomes difficult to ignore for me personally. Now, I am NOT as well versed in matters as others, but I do know not to disregard my intuitional prowess unless the needed data is there to refute it. I think there was an element of planning or forethought involved. Or at the very least a repitition that guided the actions. Sorry if that came out sounding like complete nonsense. I need to sleep as it has been a long while since it has been a long while since my last bout with the Sandman.
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  #24  
Old 01-02-2014, 09:58 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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That is why I suggested the discovery aspect as potentially being the thing that must be satiated. I get the feeling of pragmatism from the murders. Calculated might be applicable even. Compulsion doesn't seem to fit. There appears to be a calculating aspect that becomes difficult to ignore for me personally. Now, I am NOT as well versed in matters as others, but I do know not to disregard my intuitional prowess unless the needed data is there to refute it. I think there was an element of planning or forethought involved. Or at the very least a repitition that guided the actions. Sorry if that came out sounding like complete nonsense. I need to sleep as it has been a long while since it has been a long while since my last bout with the Sandman.
And you would be right. Serial killers are an odd breed. They don't just snap and murder the first person to come to hand. Those are spree killers. They are recreating a fantasy, and as such require certain scenery, certain props, and frankly a certain cast of characters. Like any other fantasy. If you always wanted to get married in the little church your grandmother was married in, if you go down to the courthouse to get hitched it's not going to be as satisfying. You take the effort to it the the way you want to.

But serial killers often either don't have a specific leading lady in mind, or that woman (or man of course) cannot be touched for whatever reason. Which is like having the fantasy about getting married where Grandma did, but that church burned down. In which case, you get as close as you can in a way that is most meaningful to you. You marry where your parents married. You marry in the church closest to where the burned church used to be. You marry in the Church Grandma was buried in. Whatever. Serial killers get as close as they can to the fantasy. But they don't always know who the victim will be.

Which is why they have the creepy habit of being prepared. The stage is lit, the scene is set, and when they happen across a leading lady they are ready. And who the leading lady will be is entirely dependent on how they are good enough in the way that is most meaningful to the killer. It may be appearance, situation, demeanor, proximity, any number of things. In this case, probably not proximity because the scenes are not ideal, nor do they have a lot in common. But it could be a word, a look, a gesture, a smell... anything. But just because he was prepared doesn't mean he knew who he was going to kill and when. He was just in a ghastly way like Superman, who didn't know when he would be needed but he always had the cape on under his suit (which had to be so uncomfortable).
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  #25  
Old 01-03-2014, 10:20 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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But just because he was prepared doesn't mean he knew who he was going to kill and when. He was just in a ghastly way like Superman, who didn't know when he would be needed but he always had the cape on under his suit (which had to be so uncomfortable).
I think this is a good description of a certaion variety of serial killer. Though, as with all things, there are many varieties. There have been those who identify, stalk, and meticulously plan their crime(s), selecting a victim in a manner mirroring some depraved idea of dating or courtship.

There have been those who resist and rage against their compulsions until they can simply no longer bear it. This variety, it seems, is often caught early in that they tend to become sloppy in their haste and desperation.

Still another and more common type is the killer who plans based upon opportunity. He's off on Friday, he feels the compulsion growing, he plans to kill....if he can. Thus he may or may not, based upon circumstances. If he fails, he'll be out again at the earliest opportunity. Based upon what we know of the case, I'd opine that JtR was a killer of this variety. Though, obviously no one can be certain.

PDS
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  #26  
Old 01-03-2014, 12:23 PM
Cogidubnus Cogidubnus is offline
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I still think a large part of the pay-off for the murderer is the thrill of leaving a display, which like the mutilation, evolves as he goes on.

With Nicholls she's found on her back, legs akimbo, skirt raised. With Chapman similar...and noticeably her body is pointed directly towards that back door; (to show off what he's done....I think that position might not be down to pure chance).

Stride, assuming it's our man, well, we don't know how he would have left her, but Eddowes, again is displayed...with Mary Kelly the display speaks for itself, and we can be pretty sure the body was moved from the right side of the bed to a more central position...

So is the murderer saying to us "look what I can do, I'm not a commonplace killer, look how far beyond the bounds of propriety I can take things" ?

All the best

Dave
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  #27  
Old 01-03-2014, 12:39 PM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
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Originally Posted by Cogidubnus View Post
I still think a large part of the pay-off for the murderer is the thrill of leaving a display, which like the mutilation, evolves as he goes on.

With Nicholls she's found on her back, legs akimbo, skirt raised. With Chapman similar...and noticeably her body is pointed directly towards that back door; (to show off what he's done....I think that position might not be down to pure chance).

Stride, assuming it's our man, well, we don't know how he would have left her, but Eddowes, again is displayed...with Mary Kelly the display speaks for itself, and we can be pretty sure the body was moved from the right side of the bed to a more central position...

So is the murderer saying to us "look what I can do, I'm not a commonplace killer, look how far beyond the bounds of propriety I can take things" ?

All the best

Dave
Hi Dave and a happy New year,our killer obviously went for the shock factor I can't see him changing his style to something a lot less mundane also he must have taken huge enjoyment from the risk taking and he certainly did take some risks.
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  #28  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:52 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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The more I think about It the more it looks like Jack and the Torso killer are on and the same. The ripper clearly honed it skills somehow an it's no likely to me Jack just started or stopped. If we look at the Long Island Serial Killer, he clearly switches his MO from dumping whole bodies to dismembering frequently over the past 20 years. The latest body which was dumped in Egg harbor township was a girl dismembered in suitcase. The 4 women found in the same town in 2006 were not dismembered but this latest kill leaves little doubt about one Killer frequently changing his MO.

Serial Killers do change there MO and I think the ripper did. Jack really cut up those girls fast and knew exactly what he was doing it only makes sense for him to have had practice with many other victims. If you look at the LISK case the more you see it makes sense torso was jack. Perhaps he just couldn't dismember some nights and he planned attacks on the streets becuz he was confident in his ability and it's also an added thrill level with the risk involved
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  #29  
Old 04-16-2014, 01:05 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Errata ask what was Jacks fetish? I think the rippers fetish was the organs, the guts, all the body parts he cut out and the way the smelt n felt to our sick bastard. I think it's the insides that really turned jack on
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  #30  
Old 04-16-2014, 03:25 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Default G'day Rocky

But in the case of dear Jacky and Torso, there was an overlap, so it wasn't a change in M.O. but two M.O.'s at once, that I do struggle with a touch.
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