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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #201  
Old 04-17-2015, 05:23 PM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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It is interesting, and solves the problem of transportation of the bodies to various locations. With the caveat, of course, that the killer would still have to be extremely careful, if he was found off duty with a parcel in locations he wasn't supposed to be at.
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  #202  
Old 04-17-2015, 10:49 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Wow jerry I hadn't read that before and it's the most interesting post I've ever read on here. Woods attack sounds an awful lot like Emma smith's. Railway police records might still available I'm surprised no suspect has come up perhaps one day?
I still like your nightmen theory or street sweeper better. A railway police men or a nightmen/sweeper still leaves the question of where the anatomical knowledge comes from...
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  #203  
Old 04-19-2015, 04:16 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
I still like your nightmen theory or street sweeper better.
If one buys into Clay-pipe McKenzie as a ripper victim then this is also of interest for the street sweeper theory.

Scavenger Occupation (definition): A street cleaner

Here is testimony of PC Walter Andrews at the inquest.

Was any wagon there? - Two; one was a scavenger's wagon, and the other a brewer's dray. They were on the same side of the way. The wagons hid the body from persons in the cottages opposite. The head was almost underneath the scavenger's wagon.
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  #204  
Old 04-20-2015, 02:24 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default Moving slowly over time

Some of the torsos had body parts such as one arm, still attached, which was used to carry the torso. I'm not sure how this was done but it seems the torso was swung over someone's back and the arm over the shoulder as a handle, I think. So it seems whoever disposed on the parts, had some carrying to do, which meant some walking.

I don't think the torso killer moved any parts quickly from point A to B. I think he had lots of dump sites and slowly moved the parts through different dump zones before finding the target zone. Dumping zones may only be transitory.

It might be the case that the torso killer never kept all the body parts together at one time, but reassembled them at certain times. For example, the building site torso is the main trunk of the body, a heavy part, but arms and legs could be reassembled with ease. Then he has the head he brings with him or something. When the sexual organs are too degraded he goes out to kill a prostitute and harvest fresh parts.

This actually means he doesn't need a bolt house. He might perform these mutilations in a secluded place and simply move everything about. In fact many of the 'dump' sites, might have been because he feared being caught with the sack and dumped it quickly. Just dropped it and it gets discovered quickly. When things rot too much, he dumps those in the Thames. He probably had some main areas he used he wanted to keep clear.
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  #205  
Old 04-20-2015, 04:24 AM
John G John G is offline
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I personally think that the Torso Murderer and JtR were probably different killers. Thus, the Torso killings demonstrated a highly consistent MO over a 16 year period: all of the victims were dismembered by someone who was extremely knowledgeable about joint disarticulation- in the case of the Batersea Toro, 1873, for example, even the victims face was removed from the skull with precision. And, in all of the Torso cases, even the earlier ones, the exact same instruments were used: a knife and fine saw. The killer also dismembered his victims at his leisure, unlike JtR, who had to operate much more quickly.

With the C5 and Tabram we see none of this kind of consistency. Tabram wasn't mutilated and was attacked in a frenzied manner; Nichols had no organs removed; Stride wasn't mutilated at all; Chapman and Eddowes were mutilated, arguably in a surgically precise way, and organs were removed; Kelly was killed indoors and appeared to have been mutilated by someone in the midst of a frenzy, similar to Tabram, demonstrating no surgical or anatomical skill.

There was also a very different victimology: JtR's victims were mainly middle aged working class prostitutes, whereas Torso's victims were probably of a significantly higher social class, possibly West End prostitutes, and much younger- probably aged between 23-35.

Moreover, JtR simply left his victims where they were killed. Torso, on the other hand, used dump sites, and this suggests a radically different signature. Whereas it's been speculated that JtR was a lust killer, Torso seemed to be motivated by the thrill of taunting the police and by creating shock value.

For instance, consider some of the enormous,and unnecessary risks he took, and the effect they were probably designed to create: In respect of the Girl with the Rose Tattoo the lower body parts were placed in an area constantly patrolled by the police. The Whitehall Torso was left in the vaults of the Scotland Yard building that was under construction. Some of Liz Jackson's body parts were deposited in a garden belonging to an ancestor of Mary Shelley. The Pinchin Street Torso was deposited just a few hundred yards from where Stride had been murdered, and probably by the same arches that Scwartz had run to; she may have been killed exactly a year after Chapman. Moreover, the Torso was placed between two sleeping drunks, another enormous risk.

Personally, I see the Pinchin Street Torso as evidence of a killer who is jealous at the publicity JtR'S murders's attracted, and he was determined to respond in his own style, with a JtR pastiche, clearly intended as another macabre joke.

Last edited by John G : 04-20-2015 at 04:31 AM.
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  #206  
Old 04-23-2015, 07:21 PM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Personally, I see the Pinchin Street Torso as evidence of a killer who is jealous at the publicity JtR'S murders's attracted, and he was determined to respond in his own style, with a JtR pastiche, clearly intended as another macabre joke.
Really had to wonder whether the body part chucked over the fence at the Shelley estate was some kind of sick joke too.
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