Only a 0.000003 chance the Ripper murderer was not a religious fanatic

[Richard Patterson]

^ Sorry Richard, but apart from Mitre Square, what 'old Catholic grounds were previous victims killed on? I'm not understanding, not unusual for me! Were Bucks Row, Hanbury Street and Dutfield's Yard built on old Catholic ground connected to the White Chapel or something?

To me it just seems strange and possibly points to a Jack who was anti-Semite that several of the victims were killed near a club for Jews, in both the Imperial Club and the Working Men's, and a disused Jewish cemetery adjacent to Bucks Row, as well as the GSG business. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that Jack wasn't Roman Catholic or following his own agenda with regard to Saints Days. I just think it's of note, that's all.

In the medieval ages a large tract of land, in the East End, was owned by the Catholic Church land. As my book details, I believe there was a purpose behind the Ripper killing near the Jewish club. Here is an extract.

---Continuing with the idea that Thompson was seeking his prostitute friend in the East End and may have vented his frustrations on similar women of her profession by choosing to kill on this old Catholic church land, it seems a pattern emerges with the choices of each murder location. The first murder happened on Bucks Row which was once named Ducking Pond Lane. Here once pagan witches were routinely tortured and executed. Maps housed in the guildhall, where Thompson read voraciously, include Richard Horwood's map of 1799-1819. It shows the street with the pond situated where the Ripper’s victim would one day be found. The second murder on Hanbury Street was at the rear of a shop whose owner held her weekly Protestant Millennialist Church meetings. The third site on Berner Street was besides the rooms of a meeting hall; the night’s topic by of the hall owned by Jewish socialists was on the necessity of Atheism. The fourth murder occurred in Mitre Square only a few yards from the Great Jewish Synagogue. The fifth murder took place in Millers Court – less than a hundred meters from Protestant Christ Church, built as a bastion against Catholic dissenters, within the shadow of its steeple. It is possible that Thompson justified the murders by killing in certain directions, on specific days and in a particularly ways. He may have thought that crime is relative and murder can be forgiven. A bit of doggerel, written in his unpublished poem ‘A Larger Hope’ might have him best say it, ‘Sinned but in proper time and place and kept official hours of grace. Made of his sin no vulgar rumpus. But profligate by chart and compass’ ---

I believe that Thompson took umbrage at these other faiths, and in the case of atheism, non faith, that were now being celebrated in what was once Catholic land, apart from the practice of prostitution.

Whitechapel is of course named after the then St. Mary's Matefelon. I believe the murders were roughly centered around this church, that after WWII bombings is now a public park. Here is an extract from my book about it's possible significance to the Roman Catholic Thompson and also the Ripper murder pattern.I apologise for the length of the extract, but to me it is more than coincidence that the history of the naming of this Catholic church shows similarities to circumstances of the Ripper murders. I could also include Thompsn discussing the significance of killing on holy ground but I feel I would be given away more than anyone would want to know here.

---
The 1st and most salient feature of the crimes is that they happened in a district named Whitechapel. It’s a fact that despite great risk to himself with police concentrating their patrols in this area and with a public so outraged by the crimes that on only individuals but gangs of vigilantes scoured the area for the killer the assassin clung stubbornly to this half-square kilometre of each other. Such a concentrated focus to the murders prompted a member of the police who investigated the crimes, Henry Moore, to remark upon it. Moore was Inspector for the Whitechapel Murders Investigation. In 1905 Moore was interviewed by reporter Henry Cox from America's "Thompson's Weekly News". Moore told the reporter of the Ripper’s obsession with the murder local,

'In nearly every case the murders were committed on the actual spot where the bodies were found, or very close to it...This, as I say, seems to point to the murderer having a system... The murderer never shifted his ground.

We should be asking ourselves who would have been drawn to Whitechapel we would be forgiven for thinking that in a city such as London with its many churches religious sounding names would abound but it is a salient fact that of the eighty-five names of districts of London and its surrounds in the 1880’s, Whitechapel is the only one whose name means a place of religious worship. What many people do not know of course is that the very origin of the name Whitechapel has a history that mirrors the Ripper crimes. The district of Whitechapel was named after Saint Mary‘s church. It was built long before the Protestant reformation in a time when Roman Catholicism was the religion of the land. Its full name was St Mary Matefelon' Spital, but was later renamed Whitechapel, for its tower painted in whitewash. This church stood in the centre of a religious sanctuary that had operated for six centuries. Although the date that St Mary's church was built is uncertain, it is recorded to have existed by 1286 and though it was probably not built until 1250. It stood until 1875. The origins of the name Matefelon are obscure. Historians such as John Stowe's in his “Survey of Westminster” tell that in 1428, during the time of Henry VI, a parish widow in Whitechapel was murdered while she slept. The felon fled with her jewels and he was pursued to the Church of St. George in Southwark, where he claimed the right of sanctuary. The constables ignored his claim and brought him back to the city of London. As the criminal was being transferred, the women of Whitechapel, were so incensed by his murdering ways and disregard for the sanctity of the church land that they flung the filth and dung of the street upon him. Both Whitechapel’s biggest murder case, that of Jack the Ripper and the also its oldest murder case of a women for her jewels bear the striking coincidence for both horrific killings involved that of a woman in her own room and a hunt for the criminal. Such knowledge of Whitechapel’s peculiar history was unknown to only a handful of people and their was only one place in London where it could be researched. This was in a place called the Guildhall library. It was where the original works of the historian Stow and the accompanying medieval maps were kept. Francis Thompson was a voracious reader. Being not only Roman Catholic but also an ex-seminary student he was known to be well versed in religious history. He also happened to have spent great amounts of time at the Guildhall library. It had only recently become open to the public and in a short time it became a draw card for homeless tramps that would seek refuge from the cold winter days by resting in the stalls of the reading room. Guildhall, where Thompson read voraciously for months had London's possibly best public map room. Thompson was almost a permanent fixture there where he would pour over its old books and historical documents. That was until the head librarian grew suspicious of him and had him thrown out onto the streets by the police.

---

[Rosella]

^ Thankyou Richard. I understand your reference now!

[Karl]

I understand that the pattern and maths can be argued but I still feel that the correlation between professions protected by saints and the type of suspect the police sought is too great to be dismissed as just a goose chase.

But there is no correlation whatsoever, as I have explained. The very first victim was the only one which corresponded to midwives - yet the police did not suspect midwives, ever. Aberline did briefly speculate that the killer might have been a midwife, but that was only after the fifth murder. So unless you are also arguing for clairvoyance or divine providence, you really can't use this alleged pattern which the killer couldn't possibly have known about himself. Unless you believe in the supernatural, you have to dismiss this as coincidence. And in my personal opinion, it isn't even much of a coincidence.

Furthermore, you claim some significance in the fact that all the murders took place in what was once territory owned by the Catholic Church. This was back in the middle ages. This is where I ask the following:

1. Why do you assume the killer would have even been aware of that? Yes, Thompson might well have known, but is there a reason the killer would have been aware of that?
2. Why do you assume the killer was Catholic in the first place?
3. Why did you decide on Thompson in the first place?

It does seem to me that you start out with the conclusion first, and then go about seeing how you can make the pieces fit. You decide that Francis Thompson was the killer, therefore the killer must have all the character traits Thompson had, and therefore we must look for evidence supporting this assumption. This is not the correct order. You can shoehorn evidence into any theory in this manner, which is how we get the various conspiracy theories concerning the Royal family, the Stonemasons and what have you. I hate to say, but I find your evidence no more compelling.

[Richard Patterson]

I could shoehorn evidence, I could look for evidence supporting the assumption, this does not make a suspect less guilty. It doesn't magically transfer innocence.

[Karl]

I could shoehorn evidence, I could look for evidence supporting the assumption, this does not make a suspect less guilty. It doesn't magically transfer innocence.

Nor guilt. The point is, if evidence needs to be shoehorned in the first place, then perhaps the case isn't very good. I wondered why Francis Thompson was even a suspect in the first place, and an extensive search (10 minutes on Google) indicates that the only person claiming a case can be made against him, is you. But I am still none the wiser as to why. What made you pick him, out of the myriad others with a similar background?

[Richard Patterson]

Nor guilt. The point is, if evidence needs to be shoehorned in the first place, then perhaps the case isn't very good. I wondered why Francis Thompson was even a suspect in the first place, and an extensive search (10 minutes on Google) indicates that the only person claiming a case can be made against him, is you. But I am still none the wiser as to why. What made you pick him, out of the myriad others with a similar background?

Thanks. I am very proud to be alone in thinking it was Thompson. In your googling, did you find my website that explains all of this. Not sure if you read the Lancashire Evening Posts, feature article on me and my suspect that came out yesterday. Here is the link, if you are interested.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/was-presto...pper-1-7547058

Here's my website. It gives a history of how I fell into the theory a chapter of my book, given some background.

http://www.francisjthompson.com/

Of course, if afterwards, you have anything to ask, I am happy to discuss it here on this Casebook forum.

[curious4]

In the medieval ages a large tract of land, in the East End, was owned by the Catholic Church land. As my book details, I believe there was a purpose behind the Ripper killing near the Jewish club. Here is an extract.

---Continuing with the idea that Thompson was seeking his prostitute friend in the East End and may have vented his frustrations on similar women of her profession by choosing to kill on this old Catholic church land, it seems a pattern emerges with the choices of each murder location. The first murder happened on Bucks Row which was once named Ducking Pond Lane. Here once pagan witches were routinely tortured and executed. Maps housed in the guildhall, where Thompson read voraciously, include Richard Horwood's map of 1799-1819. It shows the street with the pond situated where the Ripper’s victim would one day be found. The second murder on Hanbury Street was at the rear of a shop whose owner held her weekly Protestant Millennialist Church meetings. The third site on Berner Street was besides the rooms of a meeting hall; the night’s topic by of the hall owned by Jewish socialists was on the necessity of Atheism. The fourth murder occurred in Mitre Square only a few yards from the Great Jewish Synagogue. The fifth murder took place in Millers Court – less than a hundred meters from Protestant Christ Church, built as a bastion against Catholic dissenters, within the shadow of its steeple. It is possible that Thompson justified the murders by killing in certain directions, on specific days and in a particularly ways. He may have thought that crime is relative and murder can be forgiven. A bit of doggerel, written in his unpublished poem ‘A Larger Hope’ might have him best say it, ‘Sinned but in proper time and place and kept official hours of grace. Made of his sin no vulgar rumpus. But profligate by chart and compass’ ---

I believe that Thompson took umbrage at these other faiths, and in the case of atheism, non faith, that were now being celebrated in what was once Catholic land, apart from the practice of prostitution.

Whitechapel is of course named after the then St. Mary's Matefelon. I believe the murders were roughly centered around this church, that after WWII bombings is now a public park. Here is an extract from my book about it's possible significance to the Roman Catholic Thompson and also the Ripper murder pattern.I apologise for the length of the extract, but to me it is more than coincidence that the history of the naming of this Catholic church shows similarities to circumstances of the Ripper murders. I could also include Thompsn discussing the significance of killing on holy ground but I feel I would be given away more than anyone would want to know here.

---
The 1st and most salient feature of the crimes is that they happened in a district named Whitechapel. It’s a fact that despite great risk to himself with police concentrating their patrols in this area and with a public so outraged by the crimes that on only individuals but gangs of vigilantes scoured the area for the killer the assassin clung stubbornly to this half-square kilometre of each other. Such a concentrated focus to the murders prompted a member of the police who investigated the crimes, Henry Moore, to remark upon it. Moore was Inspector for the Whitechapel Murders Investigation. In 1905 Moore was interviewed by reporter Henry Cox from America's "Thompson's Weekly News". Moore told the reporter of the Ripper’s obsession with the murder local,

'In nearly every case the murders were committed on the actual spot where the bodies were found, or very close to it...This, as I say, seems to point to the murderer having a system... The murderer never shifted his ground.

We should be asking ourselves who would have been drawn to Whitechapel we would be forgiven for thinking that in a city such as London with its many churches religious sounding names would abound but it is a salient fact that of the eighty-five names of districts of London and its surrounds in the 1880’s, Whitechapel is the only one whose name means a place of religious worship. What many people do not know of course is that the very origin of the name Whitechapel has a history that mirrors the Ripper crimes. The district of Whitechapel was named after Saint Mary‘s church. It was built long before the Protestant reformation in a time when Roman Catholicism was the religion of the land. Its full name was St Mary Matefelon' Spital, but was later renamed Whitechapel, for its tower painted in whitewash. This church stood in the centre of a religious sanctuary that had operated for six centuries. Although the date that St Mary's church was built is uncertain, it is recorded to have existed by 1286 and though it was probably not built until 1250. It stood until 1875. The origins of the name Matefelon are obscure. Historians such as John Stowe's in his “Survey of Westminster” tell that in 1428, during the time of Henry VI, a parish widow in Whitechapel was murdered while she slept. The felon fled with her jewels and he was pursued to the Church of St. George in Southwark, where he claimed the right of sanctuary. The constables ignored his claim and brought him back to the city of London. As the criminal was being transferred, the women of Whitechapel, were so incensed by his murdering ways and disregard for the sanctity of the church land that they flung the filth and dung of the street upon him. Both Whitechapel’s biggest murder case, that of Jack the Ripper and the also its oldest murder case of a women for her jewels bear the striking coincidence for both horrific killings involved that of a woman in her own room and a hunt for the criminal. Such knowledge of Whitechapel’s peculiar history was unknown to only a handful of people and their was only one place in London where it could be researched. This was in a place called the Guildhall library. It was where the original works of the historian Stow and the accompanying medieval maps were kept. Francis Thompson was a voracious reader. Being not only Roman Catholic but also an ex-seminary student he was known to be well versed in religious history. He also happened to have spent great amounts of time at the Guildhall library. It had only recently become open to the public and in a short time it became a draw card for homeless tramps that would seek refuge from the cold winter days by resting in the stalls of the reading room. Guildhall, where Thompson read voraciously for months had London's possibly best public map room. Thompson was almost a permanent fixture there where he would pour over its old books and historical documents. That was until the head librarian grew suspicious of him and had him thrown out onto the streets by the police.

---

Hello

Ummm..... The topic under discussion at the Berner street club on the night Liz Stride was murdered was "Why Jews should be Socialists",

Best wishes
C4

[Karl]

Thanks. I am very proud to be alone in thinking it was Thompson. In your googling, did you find my website that explains all of this. Not sure if you read the Lancashire Evening Posts, feature article on me and my suspect that came out yesterday. Here is the link, if you are interested.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/was-presto...pper-1-7547058

I did come across it, but as I was looking for Ripper theories on Thompson by authors other than yourself, I did not stop to read it. I have now, however, and I thought the link between the poem "An Arab Love Song" and Jack the Ripper was, well, tenuous at best. I don't see why that would make you think of Jack the Ripper, but then you also state that you have been deeply interested in the Ripper murders since youth. In light of that, it becomes more understandable how you would see connections with Jack the Ripper everywhere. This is not an argument in favour of the theory, however, because whether consciously or sub-, you try to see if anything can be Ripper-related. It is much like some people can see a masonic message in the Goulston graffiti, or see writings on the wall in the MJK1 photo.

Here's my website. It gives a history of how I fell into the theory a chapter of my book, given some background.

http://www.francisjthompson.com/

Of course, if afterwards, you have anything to ask, I am happy to discuss it here on this Casebook forum.

I do actually have a very specific question to ask, based on what you say on your website (a claim which I now see you have made in this thread as well):

You say that Francis Thompson "was taught a rare surgical procedure that was found in the mutilations of more than one victim". What procedure, and which victim?

Also, you say he carried a dissecting knife with him. A dissecting knife of what kind?

[c.d.]

There is a major inherent problem in all of this. And I mean major. No matter what pattern you come up with that corresponds to the dates of the murders you have no way of knowing if that is the pattern that Jack was adhering to. Since there would seem to be an almost limitless number of patterns you could never be actually sure that you had stumbled upon the correct one. And since Jack is dead no one can confirm that the pattern you decided upon is the correct one.

Also, the dates could correspond to something very mundane like days that fell into a week where he had worked overtime and therefore had a little more money to take to the pubs and spread around. It could also be dates when he was alone and the other people that he lived with had gone out.

So it would seem that specific patterns are limitless and mundane explanations could be many.

It might be time to grab a beer and call it a day on this one. No disrespect meant.

c.d.

[Richard Patterson]

Hello

Ummm..... The topic under discussion at the Berner street club on the night Liz Stride was murdered was "Why Jews should be Socialists",

Best wishes
C4

Thank you. I made a mistake. I will correct it in my final manuscript. Thank you for the heads up.

[Richard Patterson]

There is a major inherent problem in all of this. And I mean major. No matter what pattern you come up with that corresponds to the dates of the murders you have no way of knowing if that is the pattern that Jack was adhering to. Since there would seem to be an almost limitless number of patterns you could never be actually sure that you had stumbled upon the correct one. And since Jack is dead no one can confirm that the pattern you decided upon is the correct one.

Also, the dates could correspond to something very mundane like days that fell into a week where he had worked overtime and therefore had a little more money to take to the pubs and spread around. It could also be dates when he was alone and the other people that he lived with had gone out.

So it would seem that specific patterns are limitless and mundane explanations could be many.

It might be time to grab a beer and call it a day on this one. No disrespect meant.

c.d.

Fair enough. It's just an idea.

[YankeeSergeant]

I have a query, if I may be so presumptuous. As a Catholic of Scottish and Irish extraction, I know there are over 900 recognized saints from that area. the whole idea of saints days being meaningful to our killer seem to me a bit far fetched. Having said that, I have studied the Ripper for well over twenty years and will be the first to admit how little I know. Is it possible there is no connection to saints? First, we would have to know that Jack was a Catholic or of the Church of England. How would a practicing catholic or Anglican justify murder on a saints day. People do horrible things, (The saint Bartholomew Day Massacre comes to mind) but to violate the 10 commandments on a saint's day would not be the act of a practicing Catholic or Anglican. At least not by murder. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Karl]

I have a query, if I may be so presumptuous. As a Catholic of Scottish and Irish extraction, I know there are over 900 recognized saints from that area. the whole idea of saints days being meaningful to our killer seem to me a bit far fetched. Having said that, I have studied the Ripper for well over twenty years and will be the first to admit how little I know. Is it possible there is no connection to saints? First, we would have to know that Jack was a Catholic or of the Church of England. How would a practicing catholic or Anglican justify murder on a saints day. People do horrible things, (The saint Bartholomew Day Massacre comes to mind) but to violate the 10 commandments on a saint's day would not be the act of a practicing Catholic or Anglican. At least not by murder. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

In this regard it is worthwhile noting that the commandment about murder does not extend to righteous killing. So when either secular or religious authorities have condemned people to death, this was not considered murder. Nor is there any tradition in Europe for suspending warfare on saints days. And as you yourself pointed out, there was the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre, which although internationally condemned was nevertheless ordered and carried out by practicing Catholics. And if a crazed religious fanatic, there are no limits to how a murderer might justify his actions. He could kill on Christmas and see no sin in it.

[Richard Patterson]

So just to be clear the sequence of thinking that I followed was:

The name of the place - Whitechapel - sounds religious and the church that it was named after was built by Catholics. Did the dates have anything to do with Catholicism too? Yes. the professions associated with the Catholic saints for those days were very much the same as the police suspects. It's just an idea.

[Karl]

So just to be clear the sequence of thinking that I followed was:

The name of the place - Whitechapel - sounds religious and the church that it was named after was built by Catholics. Did the dates have anything to do with Catholicism too? Yes. the professions associated with the Catholic saints for those days were very much the same as the police suspects. It's just an idea.

I have already demonstrated that the professions associated with the Catholic saints was not remotely the same as the police suspects - unless the killer had a time machine or psychic powers.