The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[David Orsam]

At the moment the only posts that interest me on this forum are Pierre's as they assume that what JTR did wasn't random but deliberate and there is a pattern.

Out of interest Whitechapel, do you share my belief (and, I think, Pierre's) that the killer was so organised that he knew in advance where he was going to commit the murders and communicated that information to the police (and, in the case of Mary Kelly, to the newspapers)?

[Elamarna]

Pierre has asked me (in the form of metaphorical language hidden in his postings) to make clear that in the above post he is conceding that there were indeed 3 exits/entrances to Mitre Square in 1888 and that he misunderstood the Goad map he posted. But, like he says, such an error in no way reflects on his ability to have identified Jack the Ripper, which he certainly has.

David,

thank you for explaining that too me, we really should not doubt him I know.

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Whitechapel;368238]



" So much so that one policeman on his beat only looked into it."


Dear Whitechapel

That was because his beat only covered Church passage, it did not extend onto the beat of Watkins which covered the whole of Mitre Square. It was nothing to do with it being a yard or not.

"As I have said I think JTR was interrupted with Elizabeth Stride and looked for an alternative victim the same night because of an URGE and took a greater risk with a larger yard."

While I agree with Stride and the reasoning for the 2nd attack, I do not feel there was any design involved , he found another victim, they went into the square, he killed her, he was lucky. I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

[David Orsam]

David,

thank you for explaining that too me, we really should not doubt him I know.

No problem Steve. I almost responded to you by saying that Pierre's credibility on this forum is unassailable but then I remembered we have learnt that credibility is irrelevant in respect of someone who has discovered the identity of Jack the Ripper and this single fact means that Pierre does not need to operate by the same rules as those who have failed to find him in 127 years.

[Rosella]

Whitechapel, If the victims were 'gripped with fear,' were terrified of being killed, how come then that Annie Chapman accompanied a male into a dark back yard, or Kate Eddowes into the darkness of a lonely square (or for that matter, why did women anxious for a few pennies accompany men into dark and lonely spots anywhere in 1888?) I suggest that Jack soothed their fears to a large extent by talking to them until he got them in the place and position he wanted and then attacked.

I'm sorry that you believe that Mitre Square was like a large yard. I first visited it in the early 1960's and on the second occasion some thirty years later. At no time would I describe Mitre Square as yard-like.

I'm also sorry that you choose to believe Pierre over people like Steve who've actually visited Mitre Square, and do at least know about the three entrances.

[Elamarna]

Whitechapel, If the victims were 'gripped with fear,' were terrified of being killed, how come then that Annie Chapman accompanied a male into a dark back yard, or Kate Eddowes into the darkness of a lonely square (or for that matter, why did women anxious for a few pennies accompany men into dark and lonely spots anywhere in 1888?) I suggest that Jack soothed their fears to a large extent by talking to them until he got them in the place and position he wanted and then attacked.

I'm sorry that you believe that Mitre Square was like a large yard. I first visited it in the early 1960's and on the second occasion some thirty years later. At no time would I describe Mitre Square as yard-like.

I'm also sorry that you choose to believe Pierre over people like Steve who've actually visited Mitre Square, and do at least know about the three entrances.

Hi Rosella,

I was last there in December, so sad what as been done in the name of progress. you can however get into the square still which is good.

regards

steve

[jerryd]

Regards Pierre

Pierre,

The third entrance is where the dotted line is in Hesseltine on the left of the map. Please refer to this key, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=187589, under the heading "Openings". You will see the first entry is Passage Under and has the exact same marking as the Goad map you provided. That, Passage Under, leads to St James Place.

[Elamarna]

I've been reading about Lawende's statement and I agree that he could very well have been mistaken, and it seems the other two witnesses didn't even identify the woman as Eddowes.

Watkins testified he had been at Mitre Square at 01:30 AM, but as you very well point out, he could have lied about that to protect his job and reputation.

As for the three exits, if the murdered had been seen by a policeman while performing the mutilations and the policeman had blown his whistle he would probably have been detained by the crowd if he left the square running (I don't know how crowded the streets were at the time, I'll have to do some research about that, but I'm assuming there was a good number of people on the street). But if he had time to leave just before the policeman entered the square, he'd be almost home free.

I'm probably committing some rookie mistakes, I'm not your league in terms of knowledge of the details and I'm still learning, so please forgive me if I'm wasting your time.

Regards.

Hi el_pombo,

No you are doing fine.

however silly as it may sound, it is generally accepted that City Police officers did not have whistles in 1888.

probably not that many around at that time of night, but assuming he was not actually caught in the act walking away would have been fairly easy, Which route he took is up for debate, Mitre Street is the closest, but I prefer exiting by Church passage myself.

Steve

[jerryd]

Steve,

Sorry, I see you posted the same thing I did earlier in the thread. For some reason posts are lagging on my computer. Anyway, I confirm what you said. That is, there are three entrances/exits to Mitre Square.

[Elamarna]

Steve,

Sorry, I see you posted the same thing I did earlier in the thread. For some reason posts are lagging on my computer. Anyway, I confirm what you said. That is, there are three entrances/exits to Mitre Square.

Jerry

that’s ok

the more the merrier,

steve

[Whitechapel]

The operative word here is IF

The argument is that the victims were savvy and would have picked a location. But I suggest on the contrary that if they were afraid, they could have been gripped with fear and before they could react they got their throats cut.

I believe JTR was in control and organised and in the mould of Ted Bundy a sociopath and he could turn from a normal person to someone more frightening, if he chose to. He had many strings to his bow (including charm and fear) that he could use to manoeuvre a victim into a yard or 'in the place and position he wanted and then attacked'. It seems that you have turned turtle and now agree with the idea that he planned his attacks, having previously supported the idea that he was disorganised, random and lucky. Well done

Whitechapel, If the victims were 'gripped with fear,' were terrified of being killed, how come then that Annie Chapman accompanied a male into a dark back yard, or Kate Eddowes into the darkness of a lonely square (or for that matter, why did women anxious for a few pennies accompany men into dark and lonely spots anywhere in 1888?) I suggest that Jack soothed their fears to a large extent by talking to them until he got them in the place and position he wanted and then attacked.

Good for you.

[DJA]

I suggest that Jack soothed their fears to a large extent by talking to them until he got them in the place and position he wanted and then attacked.

I'm sorry that you believe that Mitre Square was like a large yard. I first visited it in the early 1960's and on the second occasion some thirty years later. At no time would I describe Mitre Square as yard-like.

Suggest that he gained an excellent "bed side manner" in over 30 years as a physician.
He knew most of the CV5 for over twenty years as patients.
Nichols and Eddowes were of particular interest to him.

Mitre Square is almost the size of my backyard.

[Rosella]

I haven't 'turned turtle' at all. I have always believed that JTR was a mixture of a disorganised and organised killer. We don't really know whether Polly Nichols was the victim of a sudden blitz attack or was accompanied a little along Bucks Row, possibly exchanging some chat, until near Browns Stables and then attacked.

Certainly the killer made no attempt at any time to hide the bodies, they were just killed, mutilated and left where they were (the sign of a disorganised killer). He was also probably single. I do not believe he was in a profession.

As an organised killer he left no weapons, no clues save for the GSG and apron and may have soothed some of his victims into a sense of false security. I don't believe he communicated with police or press, although he may have written the 'from hell' letter, and I certainly don't put him fully into the category of an organised killer.

[el_pombo]

^ El_pombo, I don't believe that the streets would be crowded at that hour of the morning. They were later, however. When PC Long found Kate's apron and the graffito at the Wentworth Model Buildings it was 2:55am.

After the decision by Warren the GSG was wiped at around 5:30am, the reason being it was getting light and, there were costermongers and others getting ready for the Petticoat Lane market, so the public was astir and the streets around would become crowded.

There's no evidence that the public were crowding streets around Mitre Square earlier. The Square itself was described as, away from business hours 'as dull and lonely a spot as can be found anywhere in London'.

Aldgate itself was quite well lighted, even at 1:45am in the morning. However, IMO, even if the pubs remained open, there would be few people tramping around the streets at that hour on a night in which it had been raining solidly for hours.

Hi, Rosella.

Thank you for the information, this means the killer practically only had to worry about police beats and, if PC Watkins didn't have a whistle as Steve pointed out, if he was caught in the act, his best option would probably be to try to outrun PC Watkins.

I wonder if the killer was confident in his physical condition to the point of considering he had a good chance of making "a run for it" in case he got caught!

[el_pombo]

Hi el_pombo,

No you are doing fine.

however silly as it may sound, it is generally accepted that City Police officers did not have whistles in 1888.

probably not that many around at that time of night, but assuming he was not actually caught in the act walking away would have been fairly easy, Which route he took is up for debate, Mitre Street is the closest, but I prefer exiting by Church passage myself.

Steve

I didn't know that, I knew I was making rookie mistakes! The idea of an accomplice seemed interesting, but I can see there's little to support it for now.