Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Wickerman]

... If any bit of MJK's story is false what evidence are we willing to accept from researchers to prove they have found the right woman?
Will we accept anywhere in Ireland as a birthplace, will we accept a brother in the army rather than the specific regiment, will we accept her father's name was Fred and they never lived in Wales? How we will know if it's the right girl?

I have to wonder if trimming the Kelly "bio" down to its very basic's is not the better way to go. At least we could give it a try.
We could divide Kelly's "life story as received via others" into two parts. Very basic details that are so ordinary and could apply to anyone, and, potential embellishments that are somewhat unique.

Details that might be worth bragging about could include:
1) The prestige of having a brother in the military.
2) The highlife in a West end brothel.
3) The trip to France.
4) Possibly, suddenly being made a widow through a fearful explosion.

Basic details, which are not worth lying about, that could apply to anyone might include:
1) Being born in Ireland (Limerick?).
2) Family (in whole or part) moving to Wales while she was young.
3) Claiming to have seven brothers and one sister.

If we temporarily dispense with the embellishments, because none of those details appear to be traceable, then strange enough, what we are left with is:
A female named Mary Kelly, apparently born between 1863-5 in Ireland, who was brought by her family to Wales while still young (8-10?), and had seven brothers, one named John, and one sister.

Those very basic details actually apply to one female in the 1881 Census.
Were you aware of this Debs?

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

I replied on the thread you started, Jon.

[curious]

Just for the sake of completeness, the younger Matilda Buckey who reappears in the 1881 census after being apparently absent in 1871, was then one of a large number of small-pox patients staying at Ascot Priory at Winkfield in Berkshire. She married an Alfred Duggin , Coffee Roaster, on Christmas Day 1884 when the address of both bride and groom is given as 1, George Street. I'm guessing this would be about the time that MJK moved to London. The female witness was one, Alice Beadle. The most likely candidate for her was just the right age to be MJK. Unfortunately she was born in Greenwich and can be traced through to her death in 1945!

Regards, Bridewell

Hi, Bridewell,
This post got me to thinking about the younger Matilda Buckey and our objection to this family because the Buckeys don't appear to have ever taken in boarders.

However, a young widow, newly arrived in London might easily have been befriended by the Matilda junior.

Many youngsters go through a wilder stage, perhaps Matilda and MJK became friends for a time.

Doesn't explain why the family did not come forward, unless it might have been inconvenient with Matilda's husband and family at the time . . .

speculation, of course.

[Garry Wroe]

However, a young widow, newly arrived in London might easily have been befriended by the Matilda junior.

A young widow might, Curious, but then we only have Kelly's word for it that she was ever married to Davi(e)s. Given the dubious nature of many of her other claims, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was yet another of her Barnett- or Fleming-like relationships.

[Garry Wroe]

The prestige of having a brother in the military.

Hardly prestige, Jon. Many of those who joined the army did so to escape poverty and unemployment, and were thus generally regarded as coarse, brutal drunks. Not exactly James Mason material.

[Cogidubnus]

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Rudyard Kipling

Sadly Garry/Jon, nothing changes...

Dave

[curious]

A young widow might, Curious, but then we only have Kelly's word for it that she was ever married to Davi(e)s. Given the dubious nature of many of her other claims, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was yet another of her Barnett- or Fleming-like relationships.

I agree with you, Garry.

I had meant to put widow in quotes to indicate that perhaps MJK was simply telling the story of being a widow, which would garner sympathy in the pub and win new friends.

It was just a thought of how MJK might have been able to fit briefly into the Buki/Buckey household which does not appear to have taken in boarders.

Youngsters bring home some some unlikely people sometimes. As I said, nothing but speculation . . . but something that might reasonably have occurred since there was a daughter of about the right age for a friend. Then, by the time MJK was killed, Matilda Jr. was a respectably married woman and there was no way she would publicly admit to having ever been friends with MJK.

[Garry Wroe]

No explanation required, Curious. I recognized that you were merely exploring the possibilities. That said, I do think that there is a tendency to accept Kelly's claimed marriage as factual, and this despite the evidence that she doesn't appear to have been the marrying kind. We know, for example, that she and Fleming were extremely fond of one another, and that Fleming was apparently keen on marrying her. One gets the feeling that Barnett would also have married her given half a chance, and yet Kelly elected to remain single in both cases. Based upon what little we know of her, therefore, I'm inclined to the view that the Davi(e)s relationship is unlikely to have resulted in a formal marriage. If it did, it would have been very much out of character.

[curious]

No explanation required, Curious. I recognized that you were merely exploring the possibilities. That said, I do think that there is a tendency to accept Kelly's claimed marriage as factual, and this despite the evidence that she doesn't appear to have been the marrying kind. We know, for example, that she and Fleming were extremely fond of one another, and that Fleming was apparently keen on marrying her. One gets the feeling that Barnett would also have married her given half a chance, and yet Kelly elected to remain single in both cases. Based upon what little we know of her, therefore, I'm inclined to the view that the Davi(e)s relationship is unlikely to have resulted in a formal marriage. If it did, it would have been very much out of character.

Or an early marriage could have been so terrible she was determined to never do that to herself again.

I have no idea what to make of Kelly, and realize I'm in good company.

[Wickerman]

Based upon what little we know of her, therefore, I'm inclined to the view that the Davi(e)s relationship is unlikely to have resulted in a formal marriage. If it did, it would have been very much out of character.

So long as no marriage certificate has surfaced, which I think Chris confirmed, it is reasonable to conclude it did not happen. In other words, there is no benefit with respect to establishing the identity of MJK for anyone to believe it did.

Regards, Jon S.