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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

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  #1631  
Old 06-26-2018, 04:00 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Just saw this. No, Paul was NOT with Lechmere as he found the body. He arrived after that and found Lechmere standing in the street, not far from the body.
Wrong - Cross had only seen what might have been a woman lying on the pavement at that point. The two of them then walked across to it and found the body together.
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  #1632  
Old 06-26-2018, 11:52 PM
AmericanSherlock AmericanSherlock is offline
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Hi AS
Neither IMHO. I think he was alot like other serial killers who preyed on prostitutes throughout history- local, knew the scene/area, same class or slightly above as victims. Amd same as many post mortem serial killers. Above average intelligence, street smart. Very crafty in eluding detection during crimes and capture afterwards.

Appearance would be average joe, had job, maybe a wife.


And he was definitely lucky, but smart people usually make alot of it.
Abby, interesting thoughts, thanks.

Serial killers often seem just like anyone else and he might have been seemingly unremarkable in every way. I would agree that unless he had an unusual amount of luck, he was probably on the rather intelligent side of the variety that made some of his own good luck.

I think because the killings stopped, this leads some to believe he either died or was incarcerated shortly after.

It is also possible as you suggest that he simply evaded capture and his bloodlust was satiated. I think some undermine this possibility, which seems perfectly plausible, if not likely to me.

MJK's murder was particularly gruesome and elaborate and the killer had the benefit of privacy. Perhaps there was a catharsis and level of psychosexual gratification achieved here that allowed the Ripper to "retire" or at lease only commit more minor assaults.

Last edited by AmericanSherlock : 06-26-2018 at 11:56 PM.
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  #1633  
Old 06-27-2018, 04:42 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Abby, interesting thoughts, thanks.

Serial killers often seem just like anyone else and he might have been seemingly unremarkable in every way. I would agree that unless he had an unusual amount of luck, he was probably on the rather intelligent side of the variety that made some of his own good luck.

I think because the killings stopped, this leads some to believe he either died or was incarcerated shortly after.

It is also possible as you suggest that he simply evaded capture and his bloodlust was satiated. I think some undermine this possibility, which seems perfectly plausible, if not likely to me.

MJK's murder was particularly gruesome and elaborate and the killer had the benefit of privacy. Perhaps there was a catharsis and level of psychosexual gratification achieved here that allowed the Ripper to "retire" or at lease only commit more minor assaults.
Hi AS

Yes its a conundrum for sure. What happened to him? Its like zodiac almost. Unsolved. But the zodiac continued to write letters long after his last kill.
The golden state killer apparently just stopped and went on to lead a normal life.
Kemper turned himself in.

Im starting to lean toward, whatever reason, the ripper stopped after mcKenzie.
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  #1634  
Old 06-28-2018, 07:50 AM
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Hi Caz,

Why so?

The Ripper existed, and we can be reasonably confident that he left a record of his existence that is available to us today. But why should that record be so overwhelmingly damning that if presented it would convince everyone?

Take my POI Thomas Fogarty. He was Pearly Poll's husband, spent most of his life in the East End where he lived among prostitutes and in doss houses. He was described as a 'vicious blind beggar' after he assaulted a young girl on the Commercial Road. He had numerous convictions for theft, assault and criminal damage.

Although blind, he was occasionally described as a wood carver, an occupation requiring the use of sharp implements, which a homeless man would have presumably carried on his person.

Shortly after his marriage to Poll, she was admitted to the ST Geo E infirmary suffering from syphilis. After she died in 1895, Fogarty spent increasingly more time in the ST Geo E workhouse/infirmary, ultimately being diagnosed with 'mania' and sent to Claybury Asylum in Essex. After five years there he was transferred to the East Sussex County Asylum, Hellingly in early 1907. When he first arrived at Hellingly he was described as being 'excitable' and interfering with other patients, but he gradually became more apathetic and his physical health deteriorated. He died at Hellingly six months after arriving there.

That's the basic bio, there's a fair bit more on the Thomas Foggerty thread at How's gaff.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ogarty&page=40

I'm sure everyone is aware of how problematic a witness Pearly Poll was. Tom Wescott covers her performance during the Tabram investigation and inquest in detail in The Bank Holiday Murders. The impression I got when reading the book was that Tom believed Poll was an agent of a grand conspiracy involving the 'Lords of Spitalfields', William Thick and other more shadowy figures. That never sat well with me and given the binary choice between Poll being that kind of agent or a ditzy, alcoholic tart, I'd plump for the ditz. But if there's a third option, that she was coerced into leading the police astray by a violent partner, that would seem equally plausible, if not more so.

One last thing. It was reported that on the morning of Annie Chapman's death a blind man of 'ungovernable temper' carried out a vicious daylight knife attack on his female guide near Spitalfields Market. He was eventually overpowered and disarmed by the crowd and his victim was taken first to Commercial Street Police station where she was seen by the police surgeon and then to the London Hospital. The story was covered by a few papers, but the details, including the names of the attacker and his victim have not yet been discovered. There may have been more than one vicious blind beggar in the East End at the time, but not too many I wouldn't have thought.

Even if we could show Fogarty committed the attack, the evidence for his having murdered Tabram wouldn't be overwhelming. But if I was investigating the case at the time and had all this info at my disposal, I'd pull him in for questioning tout suite.

Edit: I forgot to mention that between his early prison terms and winding up blind in NE Passage Foggy (as I like to call him) was in the army. Now, what's the name of the sharp thing soldiers stick on the end of their rifles? Ah, yes, that's it - a bayonet...
Hi Gary,

Apologies for the delay in responding.

I wasn't suggesting it was pointless to research anyone considered a potential person of interest, due to their known movements and/or behaviour. Far from it! Who knows what might come to light to turn one, out of the hundreds of names, into a major suspect in his own right?

But for me, right now, none of the names I've read about sticks out from the crowd enough to make me think yes, I'd put a fiver on it being him.

Love,

Caz
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  #1635  
Old 06-28-2018, 07:58 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Hi Gary,

Apologies for the delay in responding.

I wasn't suggesting it was pointless to research anyone considered a potential person of interest, due to their known movements and/or behaviour. Far from it! Who knows what might come to light to turn one, out of the hundreds of names, into a major suspect in his own right?

But for me, right now, none of the names I've read about sticks out from the crowd enough to make me think yes, I'd put a fiver on it being him.

Love,

Caz
X
Hi Caz,

No worries.

I'm with you there, though if I could be sure that Foggy was the blind beggar with the 'ungovernable temper' who repeatedly stabbed his guide in broad daylight and I could be sure that he and Poll were an item in 1888, I might be prepared to risk a fiver that he was Tabram's killer.
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  #1636  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:04 AM
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No, they were registered at Betts Street and Essex Street schools (from memory) as Lechmere.
Yes, that's what I thought, Gary.

So my point remains. Could our carman have been the kind of father who wanted to spare his little ones any possible trouble at school? Had the papers named their dad - Charles Lechmere - as the man who found a murdered prostitute, how might that have gone down in the playground?

Or was he the kind of father who couldn't have cared less about the kids' welfare, but wanted to keep his own name out of the papers for a more sinister purpose?

Love,

Caz
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  #1637  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:12 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Hi Caz,

No worries.

I'm with you there, though if I could be sure that Foggy was the blind beggar with the 'ungovernable temper' who repeatedly stabbed his guide in broad daylight and I could be sure that he and Poll were an item in 1888, I might be prepared to risk a fiver that he was Tabram's killer.
Fair enough. Mind you, I wouldn't put a fiver on Tabram not being a ripper victim. I tend to think she probably was, if her killer was anything like Robert Napper, who committed two murders which have certain parallels with those of Tabram and Kelly.

Love,

Caz
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  #1638  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:26 AM
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Im starting to lean toward, whatever reason, the ripper stopped after mcKenzie.
Me too, Abby.

Again, though, I wouldn't put a fiver on it.

Love,

Caz
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  #1639  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:38 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Me too, Abby.

Again, though, I wouldn't put a fiver on it.

Love,

Caz
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I agree witb you botb. I would put a fiver on it, but no more. And i could give a reason why he stopped.


Steve
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  #1640  
Old 06-28-2018, 12:08 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I agree witb you botb. I would put a fiver on it, but no more. And i could give a reason why he stopped.


Steve
well please do!
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