Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Trevor Marriott 10 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Batman 32 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Trevor Marriott 43 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): special k and George yard - by Batman 57 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): special k and George yard - by Batman 1 hour and 8 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Observer 1 hour and 22 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (88 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - (6 posts)
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): special k and George yard - (4 posts)
Mary Ann Nichols: What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed? - (2 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (1 posts)
General Discussion: Maria Coroner - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1261  
Old 06-13-2018, 04:49 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
None of them were seen near the body of a victim before they had raised the alarm. And none have other discrepencies and possible red flags.
Hi Abby,

I don't understand this "before he raised the alarm"?

Tbis is tbe only murder in which there are two people (Lech and Paul) who appear to be less than a minute apart when a body is discovered.

For the sake of debate lets accept they are only 30-40 seconds apart, and Lechmere is not there earlier. In that case he raises the alarm with Paul, the closest person.

It's only an issue if Lechmere is proven to have been there for a number of minutes before Paul. Such has not been Proven. It is certainly suggested this occurred, but this is entirely dependent on Paul's arriving at exactly 3.45.

This is of course disputed by 3 seperate Police Officers. All of whom under oath say such cannot have been the case.
The balance of probabilities suggest that Paul is incorrect about his 3.45.

His not raising the alarm is therefore only significant if it can be established that Paul is correct, and the 3 Police are not.


Cheers


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1262  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:11 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
None of them were seen near the body of a victim before they had raised the alarm
Because there was nobody else who happened to pass by, and the bodies they found weren't on anybody's route to work. We can hardly hold that against Cross.
Quote:
And none have other discrepencies and possible red flags.
Actually, we don't know that, because we have little biographical information on them, except perhaps for Dymshitz, whom we know got in trouble with the law on another occasion. Besides, as I see it, there are no material discrepancies or red flags pertaining to Cross, apart from the heavily-interpreted ones promoted by Fisherman etc.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1263  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:25 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Because there was nobody else who happened to pass by, and the bodies they found weren't on anybody's route to work. We can hardly hold that against Cross.Actually, we don't know that, because we have little biographical information on them, except perhaps for Dymshitz, whom we know got in trouble with the law on another occasion. Besides, as I see it, there are no material discrepancies or red flags pertaining to Cross, apart from the heavily-interpreted ones promoted by Fisherman etc.
Hi Sam
The only witnesses who were near the victims close to time of death and have red flags ( discrepencies/possible suspicious behavior) is Hutch, lech and Richardson. they may not be red flags to you, and may have innocent explanations...yet they have to be accounted for. none of the other witnesses come close to rising to this criteria.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 06-13-2018 at 05:28 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1264  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:28 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Abby,

I don't understand this "before he raised the alarm"?

Tbis is tbe only murder in which there are two people (Lech and Paul) who appear to be less than a minute apart when a body is discovered.

For the sake of debate lets accept they are only 30-40 seconds apart, and Lechmere is not there earlier. In that case he raises the alarm with Paul, the closest person.

It's only an issue if Lechmere is proven to have been there for a number of minutes before Paul. Such has not been Proven. It is certainly suggested this occurred, but this is entirely dependent on Paul's arriving at exactly 3.45.

This is of course disputed by 3 seperate Police Officers. All of whom under oath say such cannot have been the case.
The balance of probabilities suggest that Paul is incorrect about his 3.45.

His not raising the alarm is therefore only significant if it can be established that Paul is correct, and the 3 Police are not.


Cheers


Steve
simply put el-all the other witnesses who discovered the body were first seen raising the alarm.

Lech is the only one seen near the body before he did. right at that moment-even if completely innocent, I find it odd.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1265  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:33 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Lech is the only one seen near the body before he did. right at that moment-even if completely innocent, I find it odd.
Firstly, he was seen standing in the road, not exactly near the body. Secondly, as I said above, we can hardly hold it against Cross if someone else, who just happened to use the same commuting route, was passing by.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1266  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:01 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
simply put el-all the other witnesses who discovered the body were first seen raising the alarm.

Lech is the only one seen near the body before he did. right at that moment-even if completely innocent, I find it odd.

Abby

Sorry but that just makes no sense to me.

If he is only 30-40 seconds ahead of Paul of course he will be seen near the body before he raises the alarm. Its not odd, it is just factual what must happen.

In no other case is there a 2nd person that close and in direct line of sight.

If however Lech was there even a full minute before Paul, the statement makes sense.
As it stands its just illogical.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1267  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:14 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 2,552
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Much as it is true that somebody has to find a body, I think it is not a very wise thing to do to regard these finders as certain cases of innocence if they find that body alone and at a time when the victim was quite possibly still alive, but with damage that would bleed the body out over a relatively short period of time.
When such things happen, any policeman with a little something behind his skull bone should accept that unless a perpetrator is found, it is of the essence to look closely into the original "finder".

It is not as trivial and undramatic a role as you seem to imagine (or want to imagine) under these circumstances.
As it doesn’t indicate guilt that a killer should be so humongously stupid as to murder a woman at the very spot that he passed, possibly only with one other person, at the same time, six days a week.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1268  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:15 AM
Premium Member
caz caz is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Devon UK
Posts: 6,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I have to agree with you and Abby that this is most likely. Whether or not Mizen set off thinking he was being summoned by a policeman, the moment he reached the end of White's Row he was indeed summoned by Neil flashing his lantern, which would have planted/reinforced the impression.
Could Mizen have thought, after Paul's account was published, that he might be asked why he had left his beat on the sole word of two workmen whose details he had failed to take? Would it not have helped him to add that he understood he was wanted by a fellow officer [which was technically true as he was immediately sent for the ambulance], even if this later appeared to have been a minor misunderstanding? He'd have covered himself, wouldn't he?

After all, Mizen quickly appreciated, if he hadn't done initially, that both men had been at the scene of a brutal murder [not long after the brutal murder of Tabram] and he had let them go on their way without asking a single question. The only response we have from him is "All right", isn't it? If neither carman had gone to the papers or come forward voluntarily, I'm not sure if or when Mizen would have dared mention the encounter, because if he did they would both instantly be treated as persons of interest, but with bugger all to go on regarding their identities, movements or current whereabouts!

Love,

Caz
X
__________________
"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1269  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:41 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 17,812
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
But Cross didn't find the body "alone" and, at least as far as the other finder's testimony is concerned, he was standing further away from the body than Davis, Dymshitz, Watkins or even perhaps Bowyer, at the time.
So who was with Lechmere as he found the body, Gareth?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1270  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:43 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
So who was with Lechmere as he found the body, Gareth?
Paul, by all accounts. Except yours, and you weren't there.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.