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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #3101  
Old 02-02-2016, 02:53 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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I agree we have to be cautious with what seems ‘special knowledge.’ Information in the possession of either the police or witnesses can be leaked to journalists for a price, mentioned in passing to friends, or even picked up (and I suspect this may be the case with Alphon) by suspects whilst being questioned by the police.

For that reason I think the most reliable evidence is contained in the contemporary police files, despite the sterling efforts of the late Paul Foot and others. That is why the conclusions reached by DS Roger Matthews are, despite the later DNA evidence, still worthy of attention. Matthews did not just believe that Hanratty was innocent of the crime; he went further and actually recommended that others (unnamed) should be pursued legally for their role in events. He had a team of 20 officers and went through 16 boxes of evidence, so he must know the evidence as well as anyone.

It is unrealistic to expect his report to be published, since it was for internal consumption and names suspects and doubtless criticises police personnel now deceased. It would also be unfair for him to speculate on the value of potential evidence as that would render any trial obsolete. But I would like to see the police record of these 'sightings,' timed and dated. And the complete forensic report on the car might be illuminating too.
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  #3102  
Old 02-02-2016, 08:28 PM
moste moste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
Hi Dunderklumpen [are you Swedish by any chance ?] and welcome to this forum.
I have seen both these autopsy photographs of Michael Gregsten that are on page 82 of Simpson's book. The entry wounds [one through the left ear and the other about an inch higher and to the left, through the temple] are higher than the corresponding exit wounds. The two exit wounds [on the right cheek] are also about an inch apart. Unless some reconstructive surgery was performed, hardly any discernible damage is apparent in these photos. From certain things I have read over the years I was expecting to see massive damage to Michael Gregsten's head.
Yes, I knew exit wounds can make a fearful mess. Is it possible Sherlock, for you to scan and upload said photos of Gregsten, from page 82 , or would there be a copyright problem do you think ?
I find the following, something of an anomaly, (which I have added to my long list) M G was told to pass up the duffel bag from the front foot well. As we know, according to V S, he turned about 90 deg. leaning to his left at the same time, immediately the gun was fired. Now I have been reading about a thing called 'caderveric spasm'. Its a phenomena, known to the medical world as rare, and only occurs in people dying suddenly in a shock/trauma situation. The result, is a rigor mortise like muscle tensing, and almost always affects the arms, wrists, and hands of the victim. This phenomena according to Valerie's testimony, certainly had M G in its grip, since she state's according to Lord Russell, ' Mikes hands were gripping the steering wheel. When I touched them they were stone cold'. And in another article (I can't remember where)'I had to peel Mikes fingers off the wheel'. Now, I myself and I suspect a few of us, have, observed the effect of a human being, executed by a shot through the head, film footage , Tiananmen Square China, JFK Dallas, and the like. Therefor I would suggest the most likely effect of Gregstens double shot to the head would be for him to slump across Valerie's side of the car winding up on her lap. As it was, M G is supposedly sat upright gripping the wheel (I imagine, head forward against the steering). This position I would attribute to, a gun being thrust through the passenger window, and MG dispatched tout suite, This scenario would satisfy why there was zero forensic evidence of a third person in the car, THERE WASN'T ONE.
I have just finished Keith Simpsons ' Forty Years of Murder' I don't recommend it for the squeamish!. However his attention to detail, and wondrous astuteness as each chapter unfolds, victim by victim, case by case, leaves one filled with awe at his expertise, and professionalism. Then comes the let down. To wit, The A6, Murder, No explanations of findings at the scene from a pathologist stand point required here. No in depth, minute detail of wounds to the victims ,as in other cases, No mention at all of the above mentioned "Cadaveric spasm' No need to go into any serious discussion on this case eh? after all Valerie was there, wasn't she, and as we've all learned that's all that's needed!
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  #3103  
Old 02-03-2016, 05:48 AM
uncle_adolph uncle_adolph is offline
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Just as a point of interest.....how could he have had his hands on the steering wheel if he was passing the bag into the back?
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  #3104  
Old 02-03-2016, 08:13 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Hi Cobalt - thanks for your post, appreciate it has been subsequently tweaked. Good to be up and running again.

I do suspect the Matthews report raised concerns as to how fairly and reasonably Hanratty's guilt had been proved rather than finding brand new evidence to point matters in a new direction. Admittedly, that's my usual take on things here and, as you say, has to be conjecture as this report has never been published. However, if the alleged sightings were as helpful to Hanratty's cause as you speculate might be the case, then surely they would not have only been included by Matthews in his report but also presented as a ''winning card'' by Hanratty's legal team at the 2002 appeal. As we know, that didn't happen.

From memory, the Court of Appeal mentioned Lee's alleged sighting in their ruling but obviously were not much influenced by it. [I'll need to check the detail of that.]

As you suggest, Lee's ''sighting'' and, in particular, the timing of the reporting of it to police is potentially so significant. It would be good to know details although I do have doubts as to how much it would turn out to help Hanratty. It just could be that Lee was another witness who was ''trying to get in on the act'' (as mentioned by Sherrard and others) or simply confused. Attempting to probe this matter is far from straight forward.

When was anything about the green pom pom hat first made public? From this distance, that question almost certainly has to be rhetorical and remain unanswerable. However, from even around the time of the A6 crimes, the answer still may not have been clear cut. Information being supplied to and circulated by parts of the media in criminal cases has not always been well controlled and monitored.

Very much an aside but I understand the police were originally convinced that ''Wearside Jack'' (the writer of letters to the police and media in which he falsely claimed responsibility for the ''Yorkshire Ripper'' murders) was indeed the ''Yorkshire Ripper'' as some of his letters contained details that apparently only the murderer would have known. It was only after ''Wearside Jack'' was identified that it was realised his ''inside info'' had actually come from a local news feature that the policemen heading the investigation were unaware of.

Best regards,
OneRound
Hi OneRound,

You have highlighted my own concerns in a nutshell.

There can be one heck of a difference between reporting the wearer of a green pom pom hat, for driving a specific vehicle erratically, before news of this horrific crime is splashed all over the papers, and doing the same in the light of that news. If there is no way of knowing which was the case here, it doesn't really resolve anything.

If it could have done, and in Hanratty's favour, his defenders appear to have missed an opportunity.

Green bath, green pom pom hat. Still no joy for the luckless Jim.

Love,

Caz
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  #3105  
Old 02-03-2016, 08:23 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Originally Posted by uncle_adolph View Post
Just as a point of interest.....how could he have had his hands on the steering wheel if he was passing the bag into the back?
As another point of interest, is moste seriously suggesting Valerie lied about being raped in the car by the man who had shot dead her boyfriend?

If so, words - almost - fail me.

Love,

Caz
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  #3106  
Old 02-03-2016, 08:32 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Originally Posted by uncle_adolph View Post
Just as a point of interest.....how could he have had his hands on the steering wheel if he was passing the bag into the back?
I've brought this point up before and it's another one of those 64,000 dollar questions that people are at a complete loss to explain.
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  #3107  
Old 02-03-2016, 08:39 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Originally Posted by moste View Post
Yes, I knew exit wounds can make a fearful mess. Is it possible Sherlock, for you to scan and upload said photos of Gregsten, from page 82 , or would there be a copyright problem do you think ?
I scanned those pictures a while back Moste but didn't upload them on here in case it was considered in bad taste to do so.
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"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
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  #3108  
Old 02-03-2016, 10:14 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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This scenario would satisfy why there was zero forensic evidence of a third person in the car, THERE WASN'T ONE.
So who drove the car from deepest Bedfordshire to Avondale Crescent, Valerie or Mike G?
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  #3109  
Old 02-03-2016, 01:05 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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Spitfire,

Moste can answer for himself, but I think you have pointed out an obvious weakness in his scenario. The murderer must have driven the car at some point after the crime, even if the crimes were committed outside of it. There should have been some forensics.

But in doing so- by asking the question of how did the murderer make his getaway- you are also implicitly opening up an even more puzzling question: how did the murderer actually arrive at the corn field with his ammo and gun wearing a sharp suit? I think Moste suspects the murderer was met by appointment at not the corn field but at Deadman’s Hill, but that would have been a very late rendez-vous indeed, and still leaves open the problem of how he arrived there. If the murderer had an accomplice, at least in terms of transport, then why the need to drive the murder car back to London?

The gun presents many problems too. As many have pointed out, why not just fling it in a ditch, the River Thames, or even leave it in the car? I cannot imagine any criminal armourer would want the murder weapon returned to him intact. The gun was effectively a noose round his neck. It does not make sense. The murderer could have paid off the loss of the gun in cash at a later date.
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  #3110  
Old 02-03-2016, 03:20 PM
moste moste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_adolph View Post
Just as a point of interest.....how could he have had his hands on the steering wheel if he was passing the bag into the back?
My point exactly. You have it in a nutshell.
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