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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #2261  
Old 03-30-2018, 01:42 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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There are examples of serialists who dismembered some of their victims while not doing so with others. It is not an obstacle that cannot be overcome, John. It has been outlined before that the dismemberment killings may have been carried out in a bolthole that could be tied to the killer, and that he accordingly had to get rid of the remains in these cases, whereas this was never the case with the Ripper victims. Having been killed in the streets, they left no trace to the killer. It is consequentially only if dismemberment was an important part of the paraphilia that we should expect to see it every time.

The dissimilaritites can therefore be overcome, whereas the similarities remain unexplained. "It just came out that way" is not good enough in my book.
That's garbage if thats your attitude then you might as well conclude that Chapman was the Ripper and the Torso killer.
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  #2262  
Old 03-30-2018, 02:26 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The Torso killings spanned nearly 20 years so it's not really the same time frame. Unless there were Ripper style killings throughout the period of The Torso killings your argument breaks down.
Hi John
But both ended at the same time in 89. To me it looks like an escalation to the point of losing control then sudden stoppage. Common for serial killers who have been successful for a period of time, like bundy and kemper.
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  #2263  
Old 03-30-2018, 03:16 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Hi John
But both ended at the same time in 89. To me it looks like an escalation to the point of losing control then sudden stoppage. Common for serial killers who have been successful for a period of time, like bundy and kemper.
The two series murders are to my mind very different and two different perpetrators are responsible.
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  #2264  
Old 03-30-2018, 04:13 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The two series murders are to my mind very different and two different perpetrators are responsible.
Indeed, or - quite possibly - more than two perpetrators... in either series.
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  #2265  
Old 03-30-2018, 04:36 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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The trouble with the Thames torso murders is if the killer murdered in that fashion in a safe bolt hole why take the risk of going out onto the streets ? We know the murders spanned either side of JTR if it was one perpetrator he took enormous risks by changing his MO. Lets look at the C5, Polly, almost caught in the act. Annie, took a large risk in a backyard overlooked in almost daylight. Liz, very nearly caught in the act, and you could argue the same with Kate. Mary is the only one with a little bit of safety involved, and even that murder came with large risks, someone looking through the broken pane etc. If i was the killer after almost being caught/interrupted after Polly i would go back to my tried and trusted method.
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  #2266  
Old 03-30-2018, 05:06 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Indeed, Darryl. If someone had the luxury of a home, or at least a relatively private bolt-hole, in which they could safely kill and dismember their victims over a period of time, the idea that they'd take to the public streets in order to carry out very different murders in a handful of weeks is utterly, utterly absurd.
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  #2267  
Old 03-30-2018, 05:10 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Indeed, Darryl. If someone had the luxury of a home, or at least a relatively private bolt-hole, in which they could safely kill and dismember their victims over a period of time, the idea that they'd take to the public streets in order to carry out very different murders in a handful of weeks is utterly, utterly absurd.
This is the crux of the debate for me Gareth. It’s simply not believable
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  #2268  
Old 03-30-2018, 05:17 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The two series murders are to my mind very different and two different perpetrators are responsible.
Could be, I just lean the other way. I see more similarities than differences and the idea of two post mortem mutilating body part removing prostitute serial killers running around the same time in the same city, especially at that time when serial murder was rare, is just too much of a coincidence to me.
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but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #2269  
Old 03-30-2018, 05:22 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Why risk killing outdoors when you have access to private premises?
The post-mortem mutilation of the torso victims was done in conjunction with chopping them into pieces, not as an end in itself.
It is not the same location (the Ripper murders concentrated in a small part of the East End, the torso murders' focus - if it had any - in West London), nor the same time frame (the outdoor Ripper murders occurred in a short blitz of a few weeks, the torso murders on a leisurely basis over a long period of time). As to "victimology", prostitutes were, are, and always have been, easy meat for killers.

Let's be precise about these things, folks.
Precise, to your own definition sam? If you really want to be precise you could say the c5 were all done by a different hand due to there differences. Disagree if you want but stop using words like that against people who don’t agree with you.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #2270  
Old 03-30-2018, 05:35 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Precise, to your own definition sam?
No, just precise.

Whilst we see some "post mortem mutilations" in the JTR murders, what we see in the torso series is "dismemberment", not "mutilation".

The "same location" does not apply when we're talking about two different districts (West/East End) separated by hundreds of streets and hundreds of thousands of residents.

To believe/assert otherwise in either case is to be imprecise.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 03-30-2018 at 05:46 AM.
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