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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Bury, W.H.

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  #21  
Old 12-27-2015, 09:22 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
Another connection that really intrigues me is the possible familial relationship with Eddowes.

Oh, and the familiarity between Astracan Man and Kelly actually goes along with what I have suspected about JtR -- all the victims had at least seen him around enough not to be afraid of him.
Either that or, in seeing those tender touches(?) we are simply bearing witness to the common methods used by prostitutes to make their potential clients feel comfortable. A client who feels like a stranger is not relaxed, treat him like you are old friends....
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2015, 10:36 AM
curious curious is offline
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Thanks for your reply, Curious.

At the risk (and it's a perilous one!) of straying into generic Hutch-debate territory, his "thorough descriptions" are only part of the problem. Of more immediate concern is the sheer unlikelihood of Hutchinson being able even to see these things as the man passed, briefly, close to a gas lamp of negligible illuminating power - allegedly noticing and memorizing all sorts of other small accessories and details of attire at the same time.

With the exception of the horseshoe tie-pin, I would argue that there was little or nothing else about his appearance to suggest a horse-racing interest.

"Astrakhan man" is a very unsubtle attempt, in my view, to pander to popular preconceptions about the ripper's likely appearance; surly, well-dressed, Jewish and carrying a suspicious-looking package. For that reason, and without reflecting at all negatively on Bury as a suspect (who is admittedly one of the more plausible ones), I would personally avoid any comparisons with Astrakhan man.

I would be interested to see a reference to Bury being dark complexioned and Jewish looking (and unbearded, for that matter).

All the best,
Ben
Morning, Ben,
Yes, please, let's tippy toe around the Hutch-debate. :-)


Where We Are with Bury
Bill Beadle

He fitted the description of the man seen with three victims, short, swarthy and respectably dressed with features which, said the Dundee press, could be mistaken for Jewish. When the Burys visited Wolverhampton in August,1888, they had a portrait made which shows him with a moustache but no beard or side-whiskers, matching the man whom P.C. Smith and William Marshall saw in Berners Street, an item well reported in the press. Significantly, when he turned up in Dundee Bury was sporting both.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/ws-bury.html

Hope this helps.
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2015, 10:53 AM
curious curious is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Either that or, in seeing those tender touches(?) we are simply bearing witness to the common methods used by prostitutes to make their potential clients feel comfortable. A client who feels like a stranger is not relaxed, treat him like you are old friends....
Hi, Jon,

I can understand prostitutes being outgoing and welcoming with potential clients. Don't know anything from first-hand experience, but it makes sense from a salesmanship perspective.

To me, the encounter between Astracan Man and MJK reads more like old friends meeting than a new client. From posts here on Casebook, it appears that a number of folks feel that MJK did know her killer quite well in advance of the evening that has gone down in history.

At the moment, I lean toward AM and MJK knowing each other.
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2015, 11:53 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
Hi, Jon,

To me, the encounter between Astracan Man and MJK reads more like old friends meeting than a new client. From posts here on Casebook, it appears that a number of folks feel that MJK did know her killer quite well in advance of the evening that has gone down in history.

At the moment, I lean toward AM and MJK knowing each other.
Hi Gwyneth.
It's a reasonable assumption, the clientele of any local prostitute is not likely to change completely, they would have had many repeat customers.
Kelly had lived down at Breezers Hill, with no doubt a regular clientele of sailors, so perhaps more strangers than regulars. Whereas further uptown in Whitechapel away from the docks, the reverse is likely true, more regulars than strangers.
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2015, 02:31 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
1. Elizabeth Stride was killed by a thug who mistook her for a working girl that night and was rudely rebuffed, or by someone who believed she was one of the Unfortunate spies that the police recruited.
If Stride had been accosted in that manner, how did she end up inside the yard without anyone hearing a struggle?

And if you're trying to pin this murder on the anarchists club, would they be foolish enough to murder Stride on their own doorstep? And why wouldn't they inflict some Ripper-esque injuries on Stride (as you have suggested with Eddowes) to deflect suspicion?

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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
2. Kate Eddowes was killed by someone who thought she was going to expose his criminal activities...which I believe did not in fact include the unsolved murders she was to suggest his guilt for, ironically. The wounds inflicted were to simulate earlier murders.
The extent of Eddowes' injuries isn't congruent with this proposed scenario. Not even the most hardened criminal is going to mess around in Mitre Square risking his life to extract a woman's internal organs and mutilate her face unless he has the same compulsions as the Ripper. It just doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

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3. Mary was killed by someone she knew intimately, someone whose anger with her is evident in the facial slashing and the general destruction of her. Her wounds were not intended as mimicry, but they filled that bill nicely.
With respect, Michael, that still doesn't rule out the work of the same killer.

And that's without getting into the standard explanations that the violence escalated through natural progression, because he was operating indoors, because he had a obsession with MJK from afar, or because she was a more physically appealing specimen than his previous victims, etc. All of which I find to be more plausible theories than inventing another killer who's driven by the ritualistic desire to eviscerate and dehumanize women.

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Its a mistake to think other men were not killing at the very same time this Jack fellow was, particularly when we have evidence that strongly suggests it.
I don't think anybody attributes all of the Whitechapel Murders (and others) to the same hand. However, you must concede that a select number of these women in Whitechapel were extensively mutilated and deprived of their organs within a three month time frame.
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Last edited by Harry D : 12-27-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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  #26  
Old 12-27-2015, 03:27 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Surely the question should be was Bury Jack the Ripper? and the answer is quite possibly in my opinion.
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  #27  
Old 12-27-2015, 06:37 PM
curious curious is offline
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Surely the question should be was Bury Jack the Ripper? and the answer is quite possibly in my opinion.
John, I happen to agree with you that quite possibly Bury was JtR.

However there is controversy about whether Astracan Man even existed.

When I posted in this section, I expected most of the responses to be from people who already believe Bury is quite likely the Ripper, so wanted to take it one step further.

Velma
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2015, 09:21 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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To curious

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper.

Cheers John
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  #29  
Old 12-28-2015, 11:08 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper
Hello, John.

Not entirely convinced he was the Ripper but based on empirical evidence he has to be the outstanding candidate. Find me another suspect in the East End who's a proven mutilator of women.
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  #30  
Old 12-28-2015, 01:36 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
If Stride had been accosted in that manner, how did she end up inside the yard without anyone hearing a struggle?

What struggle? She had cashous in her hand for god sakes, there was no struggle in physical evidence, there was a grab and twist of her scarf and one slit across her throat. 2 seconds and silent.

And if you're trying to pin this murder on the anarchists club, would they be foolish enough to murder Stride on their own doorstep? And why wouldn't they inflict some Ripper-esque injuries on Stride (as you have suggested with Eddowes) to deflect suspicion?

I didn't say a club member killed her, I said the club would be in deep trouble if the police focused on the club for primary suspects. As it was Israel changed that focus Sunday night, conveniently.

The extent of Eddowes' injuries isn't congruent with this proposed scenario. Not even the most hardened criminal is going to mess around in Mitre Square risking his life to extract a woman's internal organs and mutilate her face unless he has the same compulsions as the Ripper. It just doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

That's your instinct talking, is it? Hardly enough to discount an idea. One that has some motive evidence within witness statements. You are aware that the police speculated that she may have been dropped there?

And that's without getting into the standard explanations that the violence escalated through natural progression, because he was operating indoors, because he had a obsession with MJK from afar, or because she was a more physically appealing specimen than his previous victims, etc. All of which I find to be more plausible theories than inventing another killer who's driven by the ritualistic desire to eviscerate and dehumanize women.

Nonsense and speculative serial killer goobly goop. Nothing within the physical evidence supports a single killer from Polly to Mary...just time, and geography, and opinions.

I don't think anybody attributes all of the Whitechapel Murders (and others) to the same hand. However, you must concede that a select number of these women in Whitechapel were extensively mutilated and deprived of their organs within a three month time frame.

Actually 3 women were extensively mutilated within 2 1/2 months. Liz wasn't mutilated at all, and Polly was mutilated to a far lesser degree than the 3 who were badly cut up
I see that logic wasn't sufficient when supposing various scenarios for you, that's fine. And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.
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